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Thread: Lock Knife E Petition - THREAD FOR DISCUSSION POINTS

  1. #1

    Lock Knife E Petition - THREAD FOR DISCUSSION POINTS

    Per this thread -

    http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.u...rry-E-Petition

    Which is purely for promotion of the E petition. Several people had comments/ points to make. That is what a forum is all about and no problem with that. But concerned that placing them on that petition thread would risk it losing momentum - or ( sorry have to say it ) things getting heated ./ closed as we all pitched in with our own version of a Mexican Knife ( Textual! ) and hence proving even tighter knife law to be required!

    So can I ask you to place discussion/ comments here and if you feel able to support it then visit the other thread and follow the petition link.

    I thank you.

    Discussion posts brought over -


    1.Wireless 23/6/13 05.15

    The wife was a Scout Leader up until about 4 years ago, and the Scouts were legally allowed to carry a knife when using it for a task that required them, we always advised these lads, 10 and a half to 15 years old, that they should buy either a fixed blade in a sheaf or a lockable folding blade, we didn't allow folding blades that couldn't be locked as a Risk Assessment. On most occasions, they would bring them to camps with a backwoods element, or on a Troop Night if training in Knife, Axe, and Saw was published within the Programme. The knives were always in the Possession of the parents to and from the home to Scouting.

    The blade had to be fit for purpose, and safe to use, the Scouts were normally handed the knife by the parents when they arrived, and had to hand them over to the Leaders on Arrival at Camp/Troop Night, when they would be stored in the Knife Bag until the training or work was to take place, and then handed back to the Leaders afterwards. Knifes were not allowed in the possession of Scouts Overnight in Tents, but on Overnight Patrol Camps they were held by a Senior Scout in a Knife Bag until needed. Years ago, these would have been worn on a Scout Belt at all times. Anyone found misusing knives was subject to sanctions agreed with parents, and might result in suspension. The knives were always handed over to the parents at the end of a camp/troop night.

    We would show the Scouts the Relevant Laws regarding Knives, and they were all aware that it was a privilege of Scouting to use these as tools. The Scouts were more rigorous in preventing disrespect of this privilege by younger Scouts, because they knew that they could lose the privilege. I never saw a Scout who wasn't safe with knives, axes, or saws, they gave the tool the respect it deserved.

    However, even though we were legitimately using them as a part of the Scout Association, and had a curriculum that included instructional training with knives, we were always worried about being responsible for a bag of 30 Knives (explain that one to an over zealous copper), and therefore a copy of the Legislation was always with them in the bag.

    I would suggest that keeping a copy of the Legislation on your person, and observing similar caution regarding letting the public know you have them, but as a Deer Stalker I see no reason why you could be prosecuted for carrying a knife in the vehicle, even when rifles are safely away in the cabinet at home, since it is a tool for Humane Dispatch, obviously very much dependent on the situation.

    As anyone that holds a DSC1 will know, you have a duty of care to relieve the suffering of any injured animals you might encounter at the roadside, if safe to do so, and as you'd not reasonably be carrying Firearms or Shotguns on coming across such a situation, unless called out by the Police or RSPCA, a knife in the glove box might be the only means to effectively follow legislation. You can't be arrested for being minimally prepared, surely?

    Has there ever been any case of a Deer Stalker convicted or cautioned for carrying a knife? While Stalking or not Stalking?

    I would suggest that an SGC/FAC Holder wouldn't likely be flagged up as a vehicle needing to be searched, since you're all Law Abiding Citizens, and therefore trusted, but there may still be a case or incident that I'm not aware of.


    2. JOe-Bloggs 23/6/13 07.09

    Doubt that I will sign.


    If we had to carry a piece of paper for every poor bit of legislation...
    I mean do we need to carry a bit of paper regarding transporting our firearms when we go out hunting? Or bringing a box of ammo home from the shop?

    A 'knife in the glove box' commits the offence unless you are travelling to or from your hunting you will be in the do do.

    Duty of care has been effectively transferred in law to the authorities as you cannot keep an outlawed blade in your car [a public place] so why worry? Let 'em deal with it.
    You may find that plod and then the beak will not accept 'I had it in case I came across an injured deer' as good reason.
    Remember even forgetting that you did not remove your knife from your car will not comply with good reason.

    "Has there ever been any case of a Deer Stalker convicted or cautioned for carrying a knife? While Stalking or not Stalking?" - Irrelevant you are allowed a blade for use with hunting,
    you have demonstrable 'good reason'.

    You still may find that plod will confiscate your blade even while 'evidenced up' and that your bit of paper might only be of use if you need to take a dump and need something to clean up with.
    Always remember the motto 'never interrupt a plod while he's making a mistake' be careful about waving a bit of paper in plods face - that may bite you more than you expect,
    same goes for the 'shoe lace tying brigade' 30 blades in a bag with a bit of toilet paper for protection... A careful lucid explanation would suffice far better.

    Your new long fac/sgc number will flag your vehicle as one likely to have firearms on board if they interrogate the PNC, hopefully they then will leave you alone.
    Then again for the cynical amongst us - they know who to harrass...

    As for the petition, like others it only identifies who 'objects' and achieves little, I would love it to actually do something but historically they are about as much
    use as a fart in a bucket.
    Time is better spent writing to your MP and even that is probably an exercise in futility especially if you have a lefty leaning tree-hugger commie pinko type of one.
    The petition simply will not get the numbers to make it worthwhile - it's sad but true.

    3. Eric Hamburger 23/6/13 09.10

    Signed.

    What I can't understand, for example, is that is legal in the UK to sell the
    Victorinox Rescue Tool, which includes a locking knife, but it not legal for the owner to carry it.


    Stalking, Courses, Gear - Moray Outfiiting Website here - Welcome
    BASC Approved Trainer & Assessor. Cairngorm National Park Authority Approved Supplier. Supported by Sauer Arms
    See you at the Stalking Fair, Scone & Moy 2017




  2. #2
    Comment from Finnbear270 -

    Current total................... 34, going to wither on the vine, signed it anyway, should be on the F.A.C.'s as a matter of course, (excellent suggestion from another member here)
    Stalking, Courses, Gear - Moray Outfiiting Website here - Welcome
    BASC Approved Trainer & Assessor. Cairngorm National Park Authority Approved Supplier. Supported by Sauer Arms
    See you at the Stalking Fair, Scone & Moy 2017




  3. #3
    I don't want knives on my FAC !! If I have reason for a knife on my FAC then I have good reason to carry it lawfully under the current legislation already.

    ​As for the petition, there is nothing that I would want to do with a locking blade that I couldn't do with a good quality folding blade and for everything else I would want a fixed blade anyway.... or an axe, saw, billhook, etc.... Trusting a locking blade is just the same as trusting a safety on a rifle - nothing in life is guaranteed...

  4. #4
    I have to say I haven't signed the petition and in the way it is written it is pointless.

    We have a big problem in this country with knife crime. Something major needs to be done to stop all these city kids stabbing each other. Legalising the carrying of lock knives will not solve anything.

    As it stands you can carry a small folding knife on your person at pretty much any time you want with no reason. A Swiss army knife has done me well for many years for routine jobs.

    I'd suggest the wording on the lines of:

    "A knife with a fixed or locking blade greater than 75mm cannot be carried on a person in a public place without a good reason. Such a knife may be stored in a vehicle so long as it is not accessible immediately to any one of the vehicle's occupants."

    It stops people carrying them in the street. It stops the drug dealer keeping it in the glovebox or under the seat 'in-case he comes across an injured deer in Camden' but allows any of us to have such an item in the boot of the car should we want to keep it there.

    The law was not passed to piss us guys off, but it needs to remain to let the police deal with the idiots carrying blades for self defence.

    Section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 (England & Wales) makes it an offence to discharge a firearm within 50 ft of the centre of a highway with vehicular rights without lawful authority or excuse, if as a result a user of the highway is injured, interrupted or endangered.

  5. #5
    Surely the idea of this knife law is so that people carrying them will be convicted, there is no restriction on supplying to adults.

    To my mind it would be preferable to to apply "prohibited person" status to anyone with a history of violent or criminal offending instead. That way those who need to be convicted will be and stalkers, countrymen & tradesmen need have no fear of inadvertently breaking the law. atb Tim

  6. #6
    The knife laws will not prevent one stabbing as will gun laws not prevent gun crime, the only people it will effect is the average citizen , who will obey the law, there was always a law in place, carrying a offensive weapon . Most slashings are carried out by stanley knife blades, under 3 inches, easy to drop.
    the law was brought in so the police could say at least we are tryin, they know it will not work in the majority of cases.

  7. #7
    I have before now accidentally left my fleece in the car with a locking EKA in the pocket but I never feel the need to carry a knife except when I'm out stalking.
    "It's halfway down the hill, directly below that tree next to a rock that looks like a bell-end"

    Good deals with ~ deako ~ sakowsm ~ dryan ~ 2734neil ~ mo ~ riggers ~ mmbeatle ~ seanct ~ an du ru fox

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Apache View Post

    The law was not passed to piss us guys off, but it needs to remain to let the police deal with the idiots carrying blades for self defence.
    If it were just self defence, no trouble would start. They are going out with knives to start trouble with rival gangs with full intention of using the knife to injure or kill. They'd have a gun if they could get/afford it.

    If they were concerned about their welfare, they'd stay at home.

  9. #9
    Everyone found the thread then!

    Great replies - thank you.

    It brings an interesting perspective to ( at risk of over dramatising ) the whole 'scene'.

    Here's my take ( Andy ) it is just my take, nothing personal implied or intended. Hopefully this is taken as just polite open debate -

    The E Petition isn't perfectly worded, these things are ideas articulated to the best ability of the petitioner - and long may it be so. To be clear it is not my petition, but a search will reveal it to be one of the few pro knife petitions running and not connected with the ' free home defence 44 Magnums for everyone in Kensington' types . There are a myriad of Anti knife petitions - most with significantly more support.

    As it stands it isnt intolerable; perfect no. Arguably at law incorrect etc etc etc. But it is a marker. Will it get 100,000 signatures - no chance. So its a dead loss?

    If I choose to write to my MP on the knife issue and sought to refer him to such a petition in an attempt to show the extent of feeling; does my letter increase or decrease in credibility if that petition has tens or thousands of votes? Forget the detail, what's the headline message - the number of pro votes.

    Knife law is there to protect us. Totally agree. I will belabour this - I have lost a close family member to a bladed weapon. Does the current knife law provide that protection anymore effectively than the firearms legislation? Argue all you like but the answer is no guys. Focus on the object always means the problem gets ignored.

    Read the comments above - distilled down to an essence they all come to one thing - the object. The inanimate object. Hopolophobia.

    The City of Chicago went through traumatic, sad and interesting times from the late 1970's into the 1980's. They had a drug problem, a gang problem, a gun problem, a knife problem, a baseball bat problem, a hocky stick problem. And so on. Tough initiatives were launched on each of these 'problems' - and with measurable results. It was only upon looking back at length that some wise guy analysed that what they had actually had all along was a people problem!

    Concurrent with various hard line crackdowns etc various initiatives were running to influence perspectives. Youth schemes, drug programmes, sports initiatives, safe hostels, counselling. Research in Chicago and elsewhere indicates that perception is the most powerful influence factor and perception is best affected by social interaction. They did not cure, but they helped the people problem - the associated object problem went away/ declined.

    We are in the grip of a wave of intolerable knife crime? Any measure must be taken to to win the fight etc etc. As in Chicago knife crime is falling right now. Is it because a former Inspector had his Swiss Army knife confiscated at an Airport and on his return was charged? I doubt it. Is it because a thug with the mentality that he's going to carry a knife seriously spends a great deal of time worrying about being caught - or the consequences of being caught. It isnt, really it isnt.

    Its because schemes have been running to influence perception - like drink driving, alter perception to change behaviour. Just those schemes get little of the headlines. De -escalation in action.

    If you believe there is a direct link between Mr I A M Thug's criminal activity and the clarification of current law to allow the carrying of a safer, more sensible version of the already legally mandated form of a blade* I have to ask for someone to spell it out because I dont get it. * a type of folder advised as safer to use by government departments and published, respected knife practitioners.

    You may not wish to carry any kind of blade whatsoever, have no conceivable circumstance in which it would ever happen - or such circumstance would be so rock solidly reasonable that there simply is no issue. That's fine and I fully respect that. I would like to carry a Leatherman Wave Multitool. Its blades are sub 3", but do lock as a safety feature. This benefit of locking removes the automatic right to public carry. It happens that I have employment that for 80-90% of the time likely creates a reasonable excuse. Case law shows that placing the tool in my glove box - or anywhere other than a tool box in the boot MAY expose me to possible prosecution and the consequent loss of my career. So I have to develop a convoluted series of arrangements to stay legal and yet still have that constant worry.

    Checking Hansard, Parliament readily agreed to exempt folding blades upto 3" and appear to have considered that applied to all folding blades. As is usual with Parliament they were not expert enough to realise types existed and no organisation at the time sort to cover this issue or any other connected to it so as in all legislation, there was room for interpretation.

    Subsequently cases went to Magistrates and then High Court and upon consulting an Oxford English Dictionary - which made no mention of a lock, the Courts decided the law did not extend to lock knives. A not unusual switch around of the legal tenet that what is not expressly prohibited is allowed.

    So here I am, Mr Worried. The weight off my mind if this could be highlighted would be considerable. I do not feel that public safety would be compromised to any additional extent ( than the current legislation already provides ). I find a petition - imperfect, but a good starting point. It is a little optimistic to expect much to happen, but if you dont ask?

    And in reply some of you decline to sign because it doesn't affect you, is of no relevance to you, the petition isnt well worded? If you genuinely believe this element would impact public safety I must at least respect your intentions. Outwith that, against 80,000 votes against the Badger Cull etc etc - how bodes the future for turning the slow decay of our sports?
    Stalking, Courses, Gear - Moray Outfiiting Website here - Welcome
    BASC Approved Trainer & Assessor. Cairngorm National Park Authority Approved Supplier. Supported by Sauer Arms
    See you at the Stalking Fair, Scone & Moy 2017




  10. #10
    Well put Moray, we are the archetics of our own demise look at how many views these & others like them ( RSPCA slated)posts get & then how many ppl act it's a discracefull state of affairs that they have succeeded in the old saying decide and concquer & that's exactly what the politicians & antis have done!
    The saying united we stand devised we fall is never mor true than at this present time as we are devised and our civil liberties & sport are being continue sly eroded while we as a majority either stand by and allow it with total apathy or spend our time squabbling amongst ourselves or over inconsequential things, and sadly ever so slowly we allow all these ever more oppressing things to be forced upon our lifestyles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moray Outfitting View Post
    Everyone found the thread then!

    Great replies - thank you.

    It brings an interesting perspective to ( at risk of over dramatising ) the whole 'scene'.

    Here's my take ( Andy ) it is just my take, nothing personal implied or intended. Hopefully this is taken as just polite open debate -

    The E Petition isn't perfectly worded, these things are ideas articulated to the best ability of the petitioner - and long may it be so. To be clear it is not my petition, but a search will reveal it to be one of the few pro knife petitions running and not connected with the ' free home defence 44 Magnums for everyone in Kensington' types . There are a myriad of Anti knife petitions - most with significantly more support.

    As it stands it isnt intolerable; perfect no. Arguably at law incorrect etc etc etc. But it is a marker. Will it get 100,000 signatures - no chance. So its a dead loss?

    If I choose to write to my MP on the knife issue and sought to refer him to such a petition in an attempt to show the extent of feeling; does my letter increase or decrease in credibility if that petition has tens or thousands of votes? Forget the detail, what's the headline message - the number of pro votes.

    Knife law is there to protect us. Totally agree. I will belabour this - I have lost a close family member to a bladed weapon. Does the current knife law provide that protection anymore effectively than the firearms legislation? Argue all you like but the answer is no guys. Focus on the object always means the problem gets ignored.

    Read the comments above - distilled down to an essence they all come to one thing - the object. The inanimate object. Hopolophobia.

    The City of Chicago went through traumatic, sad and interesting times from the late 1970's into the 1980's. They had a drug problem, a gang problem, a gun problem, a knife problem, a baseball bat problem, a hocky stick problem. And so on. Tough initiatives were launched on each of these 'problems' - and with measurable results. It was only upon looking back at length that some wise guy analysed that what they had actually had all along was a people problem!

    Concurrent with various hard line crackdowns etc various initiatives were running to influence perspectives. Youth schemes, drug programmes, sports initiatives, safe hostels, counselling. Research in Chicago and elsewhere indicates that perception is the most powerful influence factor and perception is best affected by social interaction. They did not cure, but they helped the people problem - the associated object problem went away/ declined.

    We are in the grip of a wave of intolerable knife crime? Any measure must be taken to to win the fight etc etc. As in Chicago knife crime is falling right now. Is it because a former Inspector had his Swiss Army knife confiscated at an Airport and on his return was charged? I doubt it. Is it because a thug with the mentality that he's going to carry a knife seriously spends a great deal of time worrying about being caught - or the consequences of being caught. It isnt, really it isnt.

    Its because schemes have been running to influence perception - like drink driving, alter perception to change behaviour. Just those schemes get little of the headlines. De -escalation in action.

    If you believe there is a direct link between Mr I A M Thug's criminal activity and the clarification of current law to allow the carrying of a safer, more sensible version of the already legally mandated form of a blade* I have to ask for someone to spell it out because I dont get it. * a type of folder advised as safer to use by government departments and published, respected knife practitioners.

    You may not wish to carry any kind of blade whatsoever, have no conceivable circumstance in which it would ever happen - or such circumstance would be so rock solidly reasonable that there simply is no issue. That's fine and I fully respect that. I would like to carry a Leatherman Wave Multitool. Its blades are sub 3", but do lock as a safety feature. This benefit of locking removes the automatic right to public carry. It happens that I have employment that for 80-90% of the time likely creates a reasonable excuse. Case law shows that placing the tool in my glove box - or anywhere other than a tool box in the boot MAY expose me to possible prosecution and the consequent loss of my career. So I have to develop a convoluted series of arrangements to stay legal and yet still have that constant worry.

    Checking Hansard, Parliament readily agreed to exempt folding blades upto 3" and appear to have considered that applied to all folding blades. As is usual with Parliament they were not expert enough to realise types existed and no organisation at the time sort to cover this issue or any other connected to it so as in all legislation, there was room for interpretation.

    Subsequently cases went to Magistrates and then High Court and upon consulting an Oxford English Dictionary - which made no mention of a lock, the Courts decided the law did not extend to lock knives. A not unusual switch around of the legal tenet that what is not expressly prohibited is allowed.

    So here I am, Mr Worried. The weight off my mind if this could be highlighted would be considerable. I do not feel that public safety would be compromised to any additional extent ( than the current legislation already provides ). I find a petition - imperfect, but a good starting point. It is a little optimistic to expect much to happen, but if you dont ask?

    And in reply some of you decline to sign because it doesn't affect you, is of no relevance to you, the petition isnt well worded? If you genuinely believe this element would impact public safety I must at least respect your intentions. Outwith that, against 80,000 votes against the Badger Cull etc etc - how bodes the future for turning the slow decay of our sports?
    LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE & PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE!

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