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Thread: Go with the FLO or or just say NO?

  1. #1

    Go with the FLO or or just say NO?

    Okay so I am applying for a FAC for .243 so I can go stalking.
    I have had a SGC for 15 years.
    I have also passed my DSC1.
    I am hoping to have permission to do 7 days stalking over the next year with a friend on approximately 700 acres who will also be happy to be a mentor.
    I am have also booked some paid stalking with well known well experienced professionals.
    I have no fire arms experience other than this so I have also enlisted a local coach to teach me to shoot a rifle as well as joining the local full bore club.

    I have spoken to the FLO thinking that I would be helpful and pro active in trying to put all of the above together in order to try and overcome any restrictions that I am likely to encounter. I think this is perhaps where I have gone wrong! After a chat on the telephone with him he is now saying that for the period that I am being mentored I would only be allowed to go out with the mentor named! This is not helpful as you can imagine. I have a few other friends that stalk, though not enough to mentor me but who will be happy to take me out on a day here and a day there. All are experienced and have open certs. I would also like to do a few paid days in order to get me experience and exposure levels up!

    So now I have spoken to BASC who have advised me to tell the FLO when he visits that his request is going against the home office guidelines and the ACPO guidelines and to dismiss the idea of both mentoring and naming a mentor.


    Its a real shame as to me I am happy to have a mentor who will after a year testify that I have enough experience and am safe to shoot alone but feel that naming any one as a mentor that I hope to shoot with over the next year is just impractical.

    So my question is should I go with the FLO or do as BASC suggest and say no.
    What are your experiences in saying no?
    Last edited by scubadog; 26-08-2013 at 18:01.

  2. #2
    I'm sure I will be criticised for pandering to them but, you could try another route. The rifle to only be used for stalking when in the company of an experienced stalker...something like that? As you say you don't mind the mentoring condition so trying to meet them half way is no real problem for you.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by scubadog View Post
    Okay so I am applying for a FAC for .243 so I can go stalking.
    I have had a SGC for 15 years.
    I have also passed my DSC1.
    I am hoping to have permission to do 7 days stalking over the next year with a friend on approximately 700 acres who will also be happy to be a mentor.
    I am have also booked some paid stalking with well known well experienced professionals.
    I have no fire arms experience other than this so I have also enlisted a local coach to teach me to shoot a rifle as well as joining the local full bore club.

    I have spoken to the FLO at Dorset thinking that I would be helpful and pro active in trying to put all of the above together in order to try and overcome any restrictions that I am likely to encounter. I think this is perhaps where I have gone wrong! After a chat on the telephone with him he is now saying that for the period that I am being mentored I would only be allowed to go out with the mentor named! This is not helpful as you can imagine. I have a few other friends that stalk, though not enough to mentor me but who will be happy to take me out on a day here and a day there. All are experienced and have open certs. I would also like to do a few paid days in order to get me experience and exposure levels up!

    So now I have spoken to BASC who have advised me to tell the FLO when he visits that his request is going against the home office guidelines and the ACPO guidelines and to dismiss the idea of both mentoring and naming a mentor.


    Its a real shame as to me I am happy to have a mentor who will after a year testify that I have enough experience and am safe to shoot alone but feel that naming any one as a mentor that I hope to shoot with over the next year is just impractical.

    So my question is should I go with the FLO or do as BASC suggest and say no.
    What are your experiences in saying no?
    I have held a firearms certificate in 5 different counties and have had to say no/dig my heels in on plenty of occasions. Basc have also helped on a few of the more tricky ones. So long as you are polite then I would go with everything that they suggest. It won't count against you in future if this is what you are worried about.



    ..... my first centerfire was a .270 on an open certificate.

  4. #4
    I would definitely take the advice of the BASC. In doing so, print out and familiarise yourself with the latest edition of the Guidance Note and if necessary be prepared to present a well worded letter detailing your grievance to the Professional Standards Department of your local force if the FLO stands his ground. Such as approach has been successful for me and friends in the past.

    Admittedly, I haven't reviewed all sections of the new Guidance myself yet but I'm fairly confident that mentoring is no longer recognised as a requirement or enforceable condition of being granted a Firearms Certificate.

    Kind regards,

    Tim

  5. #5
    You should be asking for an open ticket you've had a shotgun for fifteen years DSC 1 proof of being competent , Your happy to have a mentor what if wants to take you different grounds, Tell them your reasons why you need open ticket draft a letter together explaining your reasons for open ticket get deer boar goat whatever you need added don't let them push you around tell them what you WANT your paying for it SORRY to go on but you have had SGC for 15 years enough said GOOD LUCK

  6. #6
    I moved from FAC Air and Rimfire (.22 and .17HMR) to centrefire last year. My FEO didn't feel that I needed a mentoring condition, but was overridden by the FLM. I accepted it, because the wording stated that I had to be accompanied by anyone experienced with a centrefire rifle. I have some good friends (some who shoot the same permissions) who were happy to mentor me. I would not have accepted naming the individuals as that would be too restrictive and unrealistic.

    I don't think a bun fight with your local licensing office is helpful, so agree with murrayb in that you meet them halfway. If they are unreasonable, then you obviously will have to battle with them.

    Incidentally, I had my condition lifted after just a few months when I could demonstrate some ammo purchase and a letter from my main mentor.

    regards


    ​Ian

  7. #7
    My understanding was that Chief Constable Andy Marsh had effectively killed of mentoring conditions in favour of experience or training. Whilst of course you should do what suits you, it could in the long run open the door for voluntary mentoring. You have already done DSC which whilst not the best demonstration of shooting over land safe practice, is better than nothing. What will happen of course is that Police Forces will potentially just issue certificates or demand some form of training evidence as part of being a fit and proper person.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by scubadog View Post
    Okay so I am applying for a FAC for .243 so I can go stalking.
    I have had a SGC for 15 years.
    I have also passed my DSC1.
    I am hoping to have permission to do 7 days stalking over the next year with a friend on approximately 700 acres who will also be happy to be a mentor.
    I am have also booked some paid stalking with well known well experienced professionals.
    I have no fire arms experience other than this so I have also enlisted a local coach to teach me to shoot a rifle as well as joining the local full bore club.

    I have spoken to the FLO at Dorset thinking that I would be helpful and pro active in trying to put all of the above together in order to try and overcome any restrictions that I am likely to encounter. I think this is perhaps where I have gone wrong! After a chat on the telephone with him he is now saying that for the period that I am being mentored I would only be allowed to go out with the mentor named! This is not helpful as you can imagine. I have a few other friends that stalk, though not enough to mentor me but who will be happy to take me out on a day here and a day there. All are experienced and have open certs. I would also like to do a few paid days in order to get me experience and exposure levels up!

    So now I have spoken to BASC who have advised me to tell the FLO when he visits that his request is going against the home office guidelines and the ACPO guidelines and to dismiss the idea of both mentoring and naming a mentor.


    Its a real shame as to me I am happy to have a mentor who will after a year testify that I have enough experience and am safe to shoot alone but feel that naming any one as a mentor that I hope to shoot with over the next year is just impractical.

    So my question is should I go with the FLO or do as BASC suggest and say no.
    What are your experiences in saying no?
    Stand firm against this sort of nonsense, parliament makes the law in this country not the police.

    You are required to provide "good reason" which you have done. When I first decided to go deer stalking I faced this sort of unhelpful attitude from Hampshire Police and after being fobbed off by them I rung the HO and explained what had occurred and asked what legal requirement I had not fulfilled.

    Funnily enough shortly afterwards I was contacted by the FEO who came up with a face saving solution for them and the problem was resolved.

    atb Tim

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by timbrayford View Post
    Stand firm against this sort of nonsense, parliament makes the law in this country not the police.

    You are required to provide "good reason" which you have done. When I first decided to go deer stalking I faced this sort of unhelpful attitude from Hampshire Police and after being fobbed off by them I rung the HO and explained what had occurred and asked what legal requirement I had not fulfilled.

    Funnily enough shortly afterwards I was contacted by the FEO who came up with a face saving solution for them and the problem was resolved.

    atb Tim
    what Tim said.

    A 'named' mentor could infringe your human rights, to enjoy your belongings without being so restrictive as to make it unfeasable. A named mentor may not be available when you would like to shoot, thereby stopping you from doing so.
    A mentor is fine, just insist on 'a mentor' not 'that mentor' !!

    Regards
    ​Pete
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  10. #10
    You have to take into consideration not everyone lives in a county which interprets the Home Office Guidlines incorrectly. Many of us reside in counties or within policing areas where mentoring is unheard of. Why? because it does not appear in the guidlines and has been invented by Licensing Departments such as Dorset's to confuse the system further. You are either suitable or not, there are no half measures.
    The preparation for your application is good but I fear you may not have the required centre fire experience, which may be a bar in this county and others. I think if Dorset interpreted the letter of the law, your application may not be allowed.
    If Dorset say it has to be this way or the other, then that is the way it is, whether others agree with it or not.
    However the time is right just now to make a challenge. Everyone is confused with new guidelines being published soon, new procedures and policies being decided, so I would be asking the FEO/FLD to explain where the mentoring procedure comes from.

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