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Thread: Dog Threads.... which turned into stuff about breeding

  1. #1

    Dog Threads.... which turned into stuff about breeding

    Why oh why would you do that CSL LMFAO
    Last edited by 6pointer; 01-12-2013 at 00:19.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by 6pointer View Post
    Maybe the dog section of the site should be split in to two section one for Deer Dogs and one for Tracking Dogs. This might stop all the obsessive bun fighting and keep things in perspective.
    Interesting Davie....
    I just drafted this....
    Will post under this thread.....


    Scenthounds and pedigrees.........


    Reflecting on the other thread that was closed down,I thought I may start one up explaining differences in the different dogs.




    EVEN IN COUNTRIES IN EUROPE THIS HAPPENS.More so here.




    1.You have dogs within the "proper" societies-these dogs and handlers do everything to the highest level-so the pedigrees are 100%correct.Correct dogs within the pedigree,all of these dogs having been tested at work,health tested,temperament tested and conformation tested.
    Even the handlers are educated.Free.


    2.Dogs outwith the societies-dogs which may well work well but do not have the background that above dogs do,these dogs may well have dogs missing from the pedigree,which is not helpful if problems occur,not every dog will be a tested worker etc.
    In short your not 100%sure what you are getting.




    3.Dogs which have no papers at all-well these are the riskiest bet.However KC papers like in number 2 have dogs completely missing-so is that not risky too??




    Now between 1,2 and 3 this happens in every country in Europe and other countries like the US,the UKSHA is only trying to open up option 1 to people who require and need a scenthound-a correct one and who have the work for one.
    The handler has to be suitable for one.Not everyone will be.




    This is NO slight on anyone but the majority do not need a scenthound-yes-they are nice dogs-so are Caucasian Ovcharka but is there a need for one?
    Not saying that people should not have one if they want one.
    Just seriously consider what your needs are for the work the dog will be doing.
    After all scenthounds are about the work,not the breeding to churn out pups-that helps no breed.




    The problem in the UK is just that,pups being bred out of number 2 and number 3 dogs-how does that improve a breed?
    Especially when people here have NO knowledge of the lines.




    Why out of 250 BGS there are only 3 recognised BGS?
    Out of 30 HS there is only 1 recognised HS.
    These are dogs from number 1....the recognised ones-so 4 recognised dogs.


    Is that down to the handlers taking the easy way out and possibly not having the work for a correct and proper dog?
    Or is it that we in the UK have not the BEST interests of these breeds at heart??
    Why buy a dog without a full pedigree in the first place?


    Would we do that with any other breed?

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  3. #3
    George i am not sure why you found the need to post that here. It was only a suggestion that the two are kept seperate.

    Tracking Dogs and Dogs for deer. But i will try and answer your questions if i can,

    This is NO slight on anyone but the majority do not need a scenthound-yes-they are nice dogs-so are Caucasian Ovcharka but is there a need for one?

    George the scent hounds if placed in the deer dog section do very well and in some cases exceed the ability of what we previously used. Gun dogs Terriers etc.So is it not then up to the indavidual what dog he chooses.

    The problem in the UK is just that,pups being bred out of number 2 and number 3 dogs-how does that improve a breed?

    George the dogs in the uk are being bred to other dogs in the uk and hopefully the best people can find. Worker to worker was always the way and will remain so. Should anyone ever have access to better for the purpose of bettering their deer dog i am sure they will used it.

    Why out of 250 BGS there are only 3 recognised BGS?
    Out of 30 HS there is only 1 recognised HS.

    George that would depend on what you call recognised this would only be in your eyes and a very narrow minded view.Many dogs are recognised by the kennel club buy there own breed societies and by other european society,s


    Is that down to the handlers taking the easy way out and possibly not having the work for a correct and proper dog?
    Or is it that we in the UK have not the BEST interests of these breeds at heart??
    Why buy a dog without a full pedigree in the first place?


    I am sure the handlers here know what they want from a dog and i am sure there thinkings at the time were not of an easy option. If they were like me they bought their dog as a deer dog not as an out and out tracking dog and i hope people of other breeds we use for deer dogs do not take exception to our way of diverting their ability.
    Lab,s HPR,S Terriers etc .I am glad the purists of these breeds do not give us such a hard time for slight change.

    Would we do that with any other breed?

    Yes George we would in fact you might like to read a book by Brian Plummer (Of pedigree unknown a very interesting book)






    Last edited by 6pointer; 30-11-2013 at 14:20.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by 6pointer View Post
    George i am not sure why you found the need to post that here. It was only a suggestion that the two are kept seperate.
    A tracking dog can do what a deer dog can,can a deer dog do what a tracking dog can?
    Tracking Dogs and Dogs for deer. But i will try and answer your questions if i can,

    This is NO slight on anyone but the majority do not need a scenthound-yes-they are nice dogs-so are Caucasian Ovcharka but is there a need for one?

    George the scent hounds if placed in the deer dog section do very well and in some cases exceed the ability of what we previously used. Gun dogs Terriers etc.So is it not then up to the indavidual what dog he chooses.
    Absolutely-nothing has been suggested differently.However not always.
    The problem in the UK is just that,pups being bred out of number 2 and number 3 dogs-how does that improve a breed?

    George the dogs in the uk are being bred to other dogs in the uk and hopefullyhopefully???why not definitelythe best people can find. Worker to worker was always the way and will remain so. Should anyone ever have access to better for the purpose of bettering their deer dog i am sure they will used it.
    Again,why breed dogs which have no known pedigree?Is worker to worker enough?What about hip scores,conformation and PEDIGREE HISTORY.
    Why out of 250 BGS there are only 3 recognised BGS?
    Out of 30 HS there is only 1 recognised HS.

    George that would depend on what you call recognised this would only be in your eyes and a very narrow minded viewI am far from narrow minded Davie,what I always do is do my homework on a breed.Then improve that breed,not make things worse.
    Many dogs are recognised by the kennel club buy there own breed societies and by other european society,s

    The KC will recognise ANY breed if there are enough dogs of that breed-is that for the good of the breed?Please tell us which other EUROPEAN SOCIETIES ARE RECOGNISED as the dogs above are members of?therefore NOT RECOGNISED IN EUROPE.Why does the KC recognise a breed/line of dog that is NOT recognised in Europe-where these dogs come from.Who has it wrong?The Europeans or us???

    Is that down to the handlers taking the easy way out and possibly not having the work for a correct and proper dog?
    Or is it that we in the UK have not the BEST interests of these breeds at heart??
    Why buy a dog without a full pedigree in the first place?


    I am sure the handlers here know what they want from a dog and i am sure there thinkings at the time were not of an easy option. If they were like me they bought their dog as a deer dog not as an out and out tracking dog and i hope people of other breeds we use for deer dogs do not take exception to our way of diverting their ability.
    Lab,s HPR,S Terriers etc .I am glad the purists of these breeds do not give us such a hard time for slight change.
    So-what i have done with my labs-change to tracking only is change.....not on the continent,the BGS has changed in 20 years of being here,see what happens with people mating dogs,not keeping pups to themselves and selling whole litters-why?For betterment of a breed?The easy option is not actually proving ability with that dog,breeding anything with anything.
    Would we do that with any other breed?

    Yes George we would in fact you might like to read a book by Brian Plummer (Of pedigree unknown a very interesting book)BGS are not terriers,they have a long history and should be protected,the problem is like you say Davie-that particular horse has bolted and all people who breed BGS now in the UK are adding to the problem not saving the breed
    Davie,Johns post on your best practice thread sums it up quite nicely.
    Davie can you answer the other question posed as well please from the first post.....eg when buying a pup from number 2,when that pedigree is incomplete how do you know what you are getting?
    Like I say above and John states in his post,there is no problem with guys having other dogs than from number 1,however,the question is-should dogs from 2 and 3 be bred?
    As 2 and 3 are inextricably linked.
    Does this improve the breed?
    I am not naive enough to think that the puppy mill wheel will stop turning,nor would I expect it too but what I would like people to think about is-does this improve the BGS in the UK?
    Or will a society that is run along the lines of the parent societies,that have protected and IMPROVED the breed since 1912 actually improve what is available here?
    Davie-the breed is only 20 years old here,think about the questions I'm posing from an improvement to the breed perspective and not as an attack on anybody or their dog-as that most certainly is not what this is.
    In 20 years time-will the BGS in the UK be in a better or worse state if not following the correct route?

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  5. #5
    They have been breeding greyhounds for hundreds of years and still 2 champions do not guarantee a champion in the litter

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by howy308 View Post
    They have been breeding greyhounds for hundreds of years and still 2 champions do not guarantee a champion in the litter
    Fully agree Howy but it definitely improves the chances.
    Can you get the best from non descript breeding?
    eg-how do you know what your going to get in the UK with dogs missing in the pedigree?

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  7. #7
    George if your dog is a new breed and one of the lines only gose back 4 or five generation then you will need to look at the full package that is there.
    So if you want a Hanoverian or a BMH For deer dog work where do you go.??At this moment in time any one without much knowledge will look to the breed society and that is the normal course of action.
    George Health checks are normally done regards hips.

  8. #8
    And here it begins again ...

    I have a genuine interest in deer dogs / tracking dogs and even i'm
    beginning to get bored of all the bickering.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by 6pointer View Post
    Maybe the dog section of the site should be split in to two section one for Deer Dogs and one for Tracking Dogs. This might stop all the obsessive bun fighting and keep things in perspective.
    I'll tell you what would stop the bun fighting...

    1) If people could present their opinion without insulting the other person, their training methods or their dog
    2) If people could read someone else's opinion without interpreting it as an insult upon on their own good character, training methods or their dog

    Basically manners... and a bit of perspective.

    The best bit is... it works for dog threads, calibre threads, long range threads, A-max threads, all threads.

    There, I've said it.

    Alex

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by howy308 View Post
    They have been breeding greyhounds for hundreds of years and still 2 champions do not guarantee a champion in the litter
    That is the most factual piece of info I have read on a dog thread on this forum in the last year.

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