Which Luber / Sizer to Buy? Gas Checks?

neutron619

Well-Known Member
Ok chaps - another week, another question.

I am a curious person and I've decided to direct that curiosity once again at reloading, so I've decided to load up some cast bullets for my .308 at subsonic velocity.

There is no particular reason for doing this other than that I can and I want to see what I can come up with. Specifically, I am not:
a) looking to emulate the practices of early bullet makers in times of yore
b) trying to achieve anything more than hitting some sort of large-ish (8-12") target from some sort of short-ish (25-50m) distance
c) going to attempt any kind of hunting with the resulting rounds.

With those factors in mind, you'll understand that I'm not looking to become any kind of expert in using or loading cast bullets (at this point, at least) - I'd just like to put some rounds together safely, then fire them down a range and see what happens.

Some of you are, I believe, experts at using cast bullets, so it's to those people I'm addressing my questions.

I'd like to order some cast bullets from these people: http://www.shellhousebulletcompany.co.uk/productslist.htm

I've got some IMR Trail Boss powder on order from a friendly RFD. A relative has offered to order me a Lee Lube & Size kit for Christmas.

The questions I have are threefold:

1. Which Lee Lube & Size kit should I tell my relative to order? A riflesmith I greatly respect (but haven't lately been able to get hold of) has suggested that .310 is a good starting diameter (even if it doesn't turn out to be the best for my rifle). The Lee kits are only available in .308, .309 or .311, so I need to pick one - which should I choose? (Invitations to spend more than £20 on "better than Lee" kit are not welcome at this point.)

2. For this round, I'm aiming for a velocity in the 1000-1100fps range. I think I've understood correctly that the faster you push them, the harder the bullets should be. By that token, I think the BHN = 15.4 bullets advertised on the Shellhouse website are the ones to go for - the others will (I assume) be too hard. That probably means that the 165gr bullets listed for .30-30 with a diameter of .309" are my only option. Do those with experience of using cast bullets agree with that assessment?

3. To use gas checks, or not use gas checks, that is the question? I'm happy to buy these - I might buy harder bullets and push them faster at some point - again, just because I can - so they'll get used if I buy them. Really, all reloading experiments that I can conduct with a reasonable certainty of survival are on the cards at some point... :D

Thanks for any guidance the reloading gurus can give,

Adam.
 
Bump.

Can anyone help me with some advice on the questions I put above? Any and all guidance welcome.

Many thanks.
 
Have a look on http://www.full-bore.co.uk/ there's a guy that hangs out on there called Dromia he is the one to speak to about cast bullets or as he calls them boolits.
I am still in the early stages of casting for my doubles and am trying to extend my knowledge on the subject myself.
 
you might be overcomplicating things a tad. suggest buying the latest Lyman handbook. You'll find the bulk of the 308 loafs a bit faster around 1600fps. try 309 or the 311 but before that what rifle? what bullet?
 
try 309 or the 311 but before that what rifle? what bullet?

Well, yes, exactly. I'm trying to match one of the available bullets (see linked page) to a Heym SR20 and one or other of the sizing die / lube sets, but I don't know which one would be best particularly. If you can tell me that bullet XYZ from that page with sizer / luber in ABC diameter would be a workable combination, that would be very helpful...?
 
I've owned a number of the Lee sizer setups . Bought them all brand new and resold them the same way . I have a pair of Lyman 4500's and fairly old Lyman 45 . I like the 4500's more because they have electrode heaters for the hard lube .

As to gas check versus plain base I prefer gas check molds as I usually run the lead bullets just as hard as jacketed bullets .

As to checks I use Lyman , Hornady or Gator checks whatever I can get . To be honest Hornady makes all the checks Lyman sells anyway .

At the moment the only thing I cast for are 444 lever actions . However last summer I was shooting a 308 bolt gun with lead bullets at subsonic velocities and getting three shots in about an inch and a half at 100 yards .

Just because you're shooting cast bullets don't think the rifle won't shoot them well . In the past with 30-30 to 45-70 bullets in leveractions with normal velocity loads 3 in an inch at 100 yards from the bench was no great feat !

The biggest thing for making cast bullets to shoot decently in any rifle is to make sure the bullet is large enough to fill the bore . I generally sized all my 30 cal bullets at .312" and typically got very good accuracy . In my 444's I now size at .433" , over the course of time I used .430" , then .431" , then .432" and I have finally settled on .433" . Now bear in mind all the bullets I cast are no harder then 12-14 on the Brinn hardness scale . Oversize hard cast bullets you don't want a whole lot larger then the bore and by hard I mean something of about 21 on the Brinn scale .

While some may or may not agree with what I say , it has worked well for me .
 
I use Dogyrog's 115gr cast boolits in both my 308Win and 300aac Blackout rifles, at 25m both will give a nice raggy 1/2 to 3/4" single hole without much effort!.

For powder Viht N310 in reduced (subsonic) loads is a well proven choice and works out about 1/4 the price of TrailBoss (have used that as well in the past).

Using a 30cal 115gr boolit I use 4.9gr in the 308Win and 3.2gr in the 300AAC which gives around 980fps.
 
The advantage of the new Lyman lubrisizer is that it has a solid base and there are n potential leakage issues as on some of the Lyman lubrisizers that don't. But they don't all leak, not at all, but if you do buy secondhand have a good luck underneath.

I've also used RCBS and the acme of lubrisizers the Star. But unless you have hundreds of bullets to do as I did when I cast commercially the Star is really only a luxury not an essential.

For any rifle the factor that most governs bullet diameter is throat size. You can put a .308', a .309', a .310", a .311" and upwards in any 30 Winchester IF YOU HAVE THE CORRECT SPECIALISED CAST BULLET EXPANDER PLUG but if your rifle has a tight neck then they may not chamber.

Recommended for .30 Winchester is probably to go one thou over jacketed bullet size. So that's .309" and YOU WILL NEED A SPECIALISED CAST BULLET EXPANDER PLUG as the normal one with the standard die set expands to only .307" or somesuch. That is to give tension when using jacketed bullets. If you try to seat lead bullets on case processed through the die set otherwise you will shave the bullets.

Wisdom or customary lore for rifle bullets was to use linotype. Reality is that now you can't get it. So accept that but also be aware that many of the old moulds...and that includes some current RCBS and other makers...still in rifle bullets give the as cast weight as if you were using linotype. So using other alloys your bullets will be heavier and also won't fill the mould out as much.

Gas checks? For Trail Boss at or about 1,200fps to 1,500fps it isn't really needed. But bear in mind that if you lube bullets that are a gas check design in a Lyman or RCBs or SAECO lubrisizer that is an "up and down" type you will get a mucky bottom if there's no gas check in place. Or indeed with any bevel base design bullet too.

A Star is a "straight through" lubrisizer (that's why it is so quick only ONE motion and the following bullet ejects that previous) so will lube bullets that are a gas check design without the check or any bevel base design with no mucky bottom.

The source that the OP mentioned for his cast bullets? GM Bullets are better. I'll leave it at that.
 
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I just wanted to come back to you all on this and say thank you for your responses - they are much appreciated.

Firstly, I've signed up to FullBore.co.uk and am taking advice (or perhaps "instruction"!) from Dromia et al. They do make it all sound hideously complicated, but I'm trying to keep up and understand it all. I'm no less keen, though perhaps a bit disheartened that a simple bit of fun has turned out to be so involved. Meh - I'll press on.

I've noted your points about pistol powders and their being cheaper than Trail Boss. At this point, I've already asked someone to order me some TB specially, so I'm honour-bound to buy and use that first, but I'll investigate the Vit powders which I've seen mentioned both here and on FullBore. I've no problem with saving money, so duly noted.

I've also noted enfieldspares' point about the expander plug - I'll get a Lyman M die when money allows as they seem to be the preferred option.

I've been told on FullBore.co.uk to swage my barrel using a lead ball, a rubber mallet and a cleaning rod to find the bore / barrel size, which is going to take me a few weeks to sort out I expect, since it's very easy to get hold of 100 cast lead balls (for muzzle loaders) but I need only one and finding a small quantity is likely to prove harder...

Does anyone here shoot a muzzle loader and can they supply me with one or two pure lead balls of 0.375" or greater diameter that I can use to do this? (Just thought I'd ask...)

Thanks again. No doubt I'll post with more questions and a report on my progress at some later date.

Adam.
 
Adam (Dromia) I believe it is your talking about. Does he still use the 303 Sporting rifle conversion to shoot deer with. He had a Parker-Hale No4 conversion as I recall.

I'll check to see if they left me my 0.375 Ball as I used to shoot a .36 cap'n'ball revolver.
 
Adam (Dromia) I believe it is your talking about. Does he still use the 303 Sporting rifle conversion to shoot deer with. He had a Parker-Hale No4 conversion as I recall.

I'll check to see if they left me my 0.375 Ball as I used to shoot a .36 cap'n'ball revolver.

I don't know, but I'll ask him when I next head over there - sounds interesting.

Thanks for any assistance you can give - very happy to pay postage if you have something I can use to do the swaging.
 
There's really no need to slug your barrel, in fact the only time I've done it with a rifle is to check if a 8mm Mauser was an .318" or a .323" bore. On these it matters and that was for jacketed bullets. What governs your bullet diameter is what will fit in the chamber throat. So I'd just go right in with .309" or .308" and get yourself a sizer die accordingly.

Trail Boss is excellent in that there are no problems, that some believe, of flash over. That is some believe that a half full case of powder laying horizontal can flash over and give erratic pressure spiking. Trail Boss is designed to be unaffected by its position in the case. So you can go to very light loads without worry about this possible bad thing.

Red Dot and etc. work best with loads that are at or above the maker's cast bullet starting load. So the case is relatively filled. That's OK except that non of them give the lower velocities that you might want, say, to make a load below 1,400fps to comply with any velocity restriction on your range.

So that's why I'd not be upset with your choice of Trail Boss. It works well and gives the ability to make low velocity...say 1,100fps...loads that Red Dot can't without as mentioned that worry about flash over.

If you PM me you address I can size bullets down to .308", .310". .311" and .313" so when you do cast some send me say a dozen and I'll size three of each size. Not lubed as that needs more setting up of the machine but just sized. That will enable you to check if they fit the throat and if really needed used them to slug the bore too.

I've used the RCBS Cast Bullet Neck Expander and whilst it works fine the huge advantage of the Lyman M is that the lot removes from the top. So you can "smoke" the expander with a candle and adjust more easily than you can with the RCBS that removes from the bottom of the die.
 
enfieldspares,

Trail Boss is excellent in that there are no problems, that some believe, of flash over. That is some believe that a half full case of powder laying horizontal can flash over and give erratic pressure spiking. Trail Boss is designed to be unaffected by its position in the case. So you can go to very light loads without worry about this possible bad thing.

Red Dot and etc. work best with loads that are at or above the maker's cast bullet starting load. So the case is relatively filled. That's OK except that non of them give the lower velocities that you might want, say, to make a load below 1,400fps to comply with any velocity restriction on your range.

So that's why I'd not be upset with your choice of Trail Boss. It works well and gives the ability to make low velocity...say 1,100fps...loads that Red Dot can't without as mentioned that worry about flash over.

Thank you for your reply and for your confirmation of Trail Boss as a good choice. I have been dimly aware of this "flashover" effect you speak of, so it's good to know that's not going to happen with Trail Boss. The reason I chose TB over smaller quantities of other fast powders is simple: down-loading these rounds to 1100fps velocity and lower has it's own set of problems (bullets left in barrels being one) to contend with, which require their own particular attention, so being able to rule out the possibility of a double charge with a fast powder that blows up the gun (since Trail Boss is so voluminous, per unit weight) was a helpful starting point. Basically, I'm trying to do the opposite to a normal reloading process: minimum, rather than maximum safe performance from the case in question. At the end of it, I hope to have a nice "plinker" that I should be able to run comfortably and safely over short ranges that won't be any more uncomfortable to shoot than a light .22 or small bore shotgun.

There's really no need to slug your barrel, in fact the only time I've done it with a rifle is to check if a 8mm Mauser was an .318" or a .323" bore. On these it matters and that was for jacketed bullets. What governs your bullet diameter is what will fit in the chamber throat. So I'd just go right in with .309" or .308" and get yourself a sizer die accordingly.

If you PM me you address I can size bullets down to .308", .310". .311" and .313" so when you do cast some send me say a dozen and I'll size three of each size. Not lubed as that needs more setting up of the machine but just sized. That will enable you to check if they fit the throat and if really needed used them to slug the bore too.

I've used the RCBS Cast Bullet Neck Expander and whilst it works fine the huge advantage of the Lyman M is that the lot removes from the top. So you can "smoke" the expander with a candle and adjust more easily than you can with the RCBS that removes from the bottom of the die.

Firstly, thank you for your kind offer - I do appreciate it. I may have been unclear on this point however. To wit, I won't be casting my own bullets at this point. Rather, I'm hoping to load these rounds using someone else's cast bullets and I'm investigating various suppliers at this point, so slugging the bore is a means of determining the appropriate size to order. Ideally, I'd manage to get hold of a handful of bullets in each diameter to test as you describe, but people generally don't want to be faffed with piddling quantities when they usually sell by the 100, so I was working on the advice of "Dromia" from FullBore.co.uk. I thought swaging the bore would be a good thing to learn to do anyway and would allow me to know definitively what size I should get.

Irritatingly, I do have a piece of roofing lead in the garage somewhere, which I could theoretically melt and turn into "lumps" which I could use, but filling the house with lead fumes and ruining one of the Mrs' best saucepans is probably not the recipe for a happy Christmas, so as you'll see above, I've asked if anyone can supply a couple of lead balls I can use. Again, I'm happy to pay postage / costs if this is something you could help with.

With thanks for your replies - I've really appreciated, since joining, how willing people are to help on this forum.

Adam.
 
Trail Boss is the powder of choice for plinker loads now that it has been "invented" as it were.

As you are buying in bullets that I would get the throat expanded using an RCBS or Lyman M to that bullet diameter. Any bigger and they risk falling through into the case! True we have used a .311" cast bullet expander and a .308" sized and cast bullet does just that!

As an aside the Lyman 310 Tool was partly capable of being used to reload cast bullets in rifle cartridges and thus the expander die on some 310 Tool die sets can indeed be used to satisfactorily expand the now (neck sized that's all the 310 Tool dies do) sized case to take a cast lead bullet.
 
Suggest you keep things simple to start with and don't over-think things.

Don't buy unfinished bullets that need sizing, gas-checking and lubricating by you.

There are a number of "cottage industry" makers who can supply decent finished bullets, sized to your requirements, and provide advice on load data. Most don't advertise, e.g. a chap at my club supplies many of us. (PM for details) One who does have internet presence is Andy Allwood. If you want to try a variety, they may be able to supply a mixed bag.

A lee sizing die (it is not a lube+size die) plus a box of gas checks will cost upwards of £60, and is not required unless you insist on using raw cast bullets.

Lyman, Star, Saeco etc. lubrisizers are a far more sophisticated tool, using a special press, die and top punch to simultaneously resize the bullet and inject lubricant under pressure to fill the bullet grooves. They cost several hundred pounds.

Don't worry about "slugging the bore" or using over-size bullets, thats more relevant for those using ancient rifles with a variety of bore, groove, throat, land etc. dimensions, e.g. old military rifles. If you are using a .308 built to correct standard dimensions then a lead bullet sized to .309 or even .308 will almost certainly be the best fit to the .308 bore.

Don't make life harder by trying to use a bullet without a gas check. IME in .30 calibre rifles, even at low velocities, a gas check is necessary for accuracy, consistency, and acceptable barrel fouling (leading).

Bullets designed with a shank for a gas check simply do not work at all well if a check is not fitted. Plenty of good reasons why not.

Bullets designed with a plain base can be made to work in certain situations, but are still not ideal for .30 rifles. If you study .30 rifle mould designs you will find very very few plain base designs. The great majority need a gas check.

Tinkerers like to modify such moulds to ream out the gas check shank, or mill off the top to remove the shank, in the hopes that such plain base conversions will shoot well without gas checks. Perhaps some do. But I suspect many good moulds have been ruined by such experiments.

Unless you are shooting large amounts, the extra cost of a gas check (about the same as a primer) is unimportant.

If you use .308-.309 bullets there is no need to worry about expanding the neck of your cases, sized using standard dies.

You will have 1 to 2 1/1000" of neck tension which is ideal.

If you try seating bullets sized to e.g. .311 or .314 and force them in, you will likely have bulges in the necks, neck tension will be erratic and the elastic limit will have been exceeded (i.e. neck stretched) and the bullet shanks may also be swaged down undersize. You can prove this for yourself by measuring bullet diameter and case neck internal diameter before and after seating/pulling bullet.

Properly sized case necks will spring back to their original internal diameter when the bullet is pulled. You can seat, pull and reseat the bullet several times with no deterioration. But force an oversized bullet into a correctly sized case neck and it will be permanently stretched, probably unevenly. And if the bullet is soft lead it may also be squeezed smaller.

This is the situation where M dies etc. may be relevant.

Alternatively you can use e.g. the expander from e.g. a .303 die in your .308 die to enlarge the neck. Or an oversize mandrel in a Lee collet neck die. Or an oversize bushing in a bushing neck die. Etc.

You do need to slightly flare out the end of the neck, to ease the bullet in as it is seated and avoid shaving bits of lead. TBH this is good practice whether using lead or jacketed bullets. Lee make a universal die to do this. I have one, but nowadays just use a steel pin punch which has a gently tapered flare to the handle. Rest it in the neck, then rap the case head on the bench, and the inertia of the punch creates the flare perfectly, and much more quickly than using a die in the press.

This also eliminates the need for internal chamfering after case trimming.

No experience with Trail Boss, seems like an expensive solution for a (none existent ?) problem. You won't blow yourself up with a case-full, but if you don't trust yourself to measure your charges accurately I question whether you should be reloading at-all.

My recommendation would be to start with Unique, 8-11 grains in most .30 rifle calibres.
 
I was just about to post and say that I've done an impact cast of the rifle this evening which suggests rifling dimensions of .302" / .310". If there are any Heym users here who know their bore dimensions, perhaps they would have an opinion on whether that's something they'd expect to see for that manufacturer? (I know all barrels are different and but this one has probably shot less than 100 rounds, so if it's like that, it'll be by design.)

I've just seen enfieldspares and Sharpie's responses - too much to reply to at this point since I need to sleep, but I'll reply again in the morning.

Suffice to say for now, that I'm probably going to need to use .311" bullets and an "M"-neck expander and that my charge measuring is fine - I'm inexperienced, but careful and not an idiot - and that the reason I picked the powder is that everything I've read says it's the powder to use if you want to find out how slow you can go - other pistol powders below 1100fps, is, I'm told, difficult. Presumably that's the inconsistent ignition / potential flashover problem in action. Still - makes no difference - Trail Boss is what I've ordered, so it's what I'll have to use to start with.

I'll read the posts again tomorrow and reply to the rest then. Thank you both nonetheless for sharing your experience.

Adam.
 
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