lever action advice please

pjkaz

Well-Known Member
Hi all,
I hope that some of the members on this great site may be able to help. I will soon be in the market for a lever action rifle but i'm unsure of the make, model and caliber for woodland stalking. I have been looking at a merlin in .444, but I dont want to buy a rifle that turns out to be a lemon, or i can't get the ammo for, or is difficult to reload . So if you have, or have ever had, a lever action rifle in any centre fire calibur or make, I would appreciated your input . I have mainly Roe and Red on the land that I shoot....... thanks
 
I have lever guns in calibers from 22LR to 45-70 so I might be able to offer something. I have done extensive reloading for the .444 in the past, but not in a lever gun.

Firstly, I'm curious as to where this "2400 ft/sec" rule falls when you're talking lever actions and relatively antiquated calibers. Does it still hold?? If so, there are darned few "traditional" lever rifles that will get there. A 30-30 with 125 or 150 grain bullets might. Never the .444 or .45-70.

As to the .444 Marlin it is a fine cartridge. There are a wide variety of .44 caliber pistol bullets on the market to use tho I don't know about the brass situation in the UK but it can be made (with some dificulty) from 9.3x74R brass. If I was choosing, I'd go with a 45-70. Brass is a bit more popular and .457" diameter bullets are widely stocked. Performance range is the same as for the .444. meaning, that 150 yards is the maximum range.

Either cartridge is easy to reload and Marlin lever rifles are seldom "lemons". My son has a Marlin Model 1895 "Cowboy" 45-70 with a 26" octagonal barrel. It is a screamer with 330 grain cast, hollow point bullets. ~Muir
 
In the UK we have a legal minimum velocity for use on deer. From memory win is 2,450 fps in Scotland, 2,400 fps in England / Wales so the big calibres - aka 470 NE, 458 Lott etc for use on buffalo, elephant etc are not legal for use on deer in the UK.
 
THen if this fellow is hailing from the your neighborhood he is sorely out of luck unless he goes with a 30-30 and opts for 125 or 150 grain bullets.~Muir

LEt me modify that: Marlin has come out with some snorty, bottle necked cartridges for their leve guns over the last few years. (eg: .338 Marlin) but I'm guessing brass and components are going to be scarce.
 
Hi, thanks for your replies. Is the .444 marlin not legal in the UK for deer stalking, even though if produces roughly the same energy as the 30-06 in the region of 2500-3000 ft/lbs?. If not, what calibur in a lever action can then be used in the UK?. I'm not for one second suggesting that the marlin is a lemon!. T :oops: hanks PJ.
 
I think this thread went a bit AWOL regarding the calibre/energy/velocity requirements for use on deer - the main species anyway - there is no velocity limit in England/Wales just calibre/muzzle energy.

In England and Wales:

The round must not be having a calibre of less than .240 inches or a muzzle energy of less than 2,305 joules (1,700 foot pounds).

Muntjac & CWD only:

(a) a rifle having a calibre of not less than .220 inches and a muzzle energy of not less than 1,356 joules (1000 foot pounds), and
(b) a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet weighing not less than 3.24 grammes (50 grains).”.


In Scotland:

For the shooting of deer of any species, a bullet of an expanding type designed to deform in a predictable manner of not less than 100 grains (6.48 grams) with a muzzle velocity of not less than 2,450 feet per second (746.76 metres per second) and a muzzle energy of not less than 1,750 foot pounds (2,373 joules) must be used.

For the shooting of roe deer only, a bullet of an expanding type designed to deform in a predictable manner of not less than 50 grains (3.24 grams) with a muzzle velocity of not less than 2,450 feet per second (746.76 metres per second) and a muzzle energy of not less than 1,000 foot pounds (1,356 joules) may be used.

If you're not worried about having a magazine, how about a single shot falling block like a Ruger No1? This one is in the next Holts sale on the 17th - the calibre and price look good to me - 'scope is included :D. 'Unfashionable' rifles like that might even not attract a bid, so the low end of the guide might yield a result - and there are others in the same sale:
32494.jpg


Sale A1034 Lot 1138

RUGER
A 7X57mm 'NO.1' FALLING-BLOCK SPORTING RIFLE, serial no. 132-30170,
22in. blued nitro sighted barrel (fore-sight element removed), fitted with an Apollo 3-9x40 telescopic sight, blued receiver, 13 1/2in. figured pistolgrip stock including 1/4in. rubber butt-pad, chequered grip and fore-end.
Estimate £250-350
 
I had a scare for a moment there too. I'm not aware of a minimum velocity for England, Wales or NI. Only Scotland, which is 2450fps.

I am certain the the Home Office guidelines state that .45-70 is suitable for Deer, and I'm nearly as sure that .444 is in there too. It wouldn't be the first time that forces contradict each other, but I've never heard of the guidelines being wrong!

My small and unhelpful addition to this is that if you go for a .444 make sure it's a newer one with the 1-20 twist rifling. The 1-38 old style .444s don't like leverevolution or heavy bullets which makes them far less useful. My mate has a new .444 and it's great. If I could think of something I could use it for I'd ask for one! .45-70 is a heavy bullet and the trajectory is appalling. The .444 is pretty lobbed but the .45-70 is just silly. For a smaller Deer target I would go for the .444 simply because it gives you more room for error in your range estimation. If you get it a bit wrong with either on something like a Roe it will still go down due to the huge trauma these big bullets impart, but it will trash the carcass I'd have thought!
 
The 45-70 is deer legal in England but not in Scotland. I have a 45-70 for deer and, if you reload the cartridges yourself, it is a cracking round.

Stick to bullets no more than 300gn and you can expect reasonably flat shooting out to 100yds.

I zero mine at 50yds and it will take a deer from 25-75 without thinking of hold over/under

If you intend to use it in woodland, you will not be disappointed

My rifle is a Marlin

Be very wary when buying a rifle and reloading 45-70's as there are 3 different sets of reloading data which can be used dependant on the rifle

Buy a modern, high pressure action, 45-70 and you will be fine
 
Two sorts of lever action. The traditional Marlin and Winchester (except Model 88) kind that have rear locking lugs. Generally lower powered cartridges of which 30-30 is about the maximum. You'll struggle to be Deer Act legal on velocity.

Other kind. Browning BLR and Winchester 88. Basically a conventional front lock bolt action rifle that replaces the knob and handle of the bolt with a lever. Fire high velocity cartridges 308, 358 and even more velocity!

Then the odd-bods. The Winchester 95 and modern replicas that fire 30-06 (or 303 if you can find one) and those little made Winchesters that fire 307 Winchester (Google it...you'll like it).

Finally things like 7-30 Waters!

If I had to use a lever action I'd use a 307 Winchester.
 
Hi, thanks for the input. So if i was to go for the .444 marlin or .45-70 goverment and possibly the .450 marlin, what is the availability of, (A) factory ammo and (B) reloading components, and who stocks lever actiom rifles of course. I would be looking to buy new. Thanks in advance - PJ
 
HI after yet further consideration and a good look at the police guide lines .I think i will be asking for a variation for a marlin lever action in.444.So the question i would like to ask is as follows is factory ammo easy to get hold of and from where from and the same question for reloading components.THanks PJ
 
357 is not deer legal

Absolutely. And of course a total nonsense thanks to so called frineds in the likes of the BDS pressed for this velocity requirement.

The fact that scores of deer - park deer but little different in terms of range to modern woodland stalking - had been shot with the 300 Sherwood was totally disregarded!

The 300 Sherwood fired a 140 grain bullet at 1400 fps and was advertised as "ideal for park deer as does not have the danger of the highland stalker's weapon".

It really is a nonsense this velocity rule as ALL cartridges eventually become illegal as velocity falls as range increases. Particulary 303 which is probably illegal about twenty five yards out from the barrel!
 
Factory ammo for the triple isn't hard to get I don't think. Also I can't for the life of me remember where my mate gets all his reloading components from but there is someone local to us that holds a lot of it in stock. Next time I speak to him I'll ask for you. One thing he did mention is the length of the cases used for the factory leverevolution. I think they're just a smudge shorter than standard? Hornady also use a blended powder I think so you may struggle to reach their velocity claims with over the counter powders. The Leverevolution bullets are available to reload with and so I'm told expand quite a lot better than the 265grn SP which is the other common option for this calibre. The 240s fragment quite badly due to their pistol velocity design.

I think you've made a good choice. The .444 is a fine round. If you back off and don't try to load max loads it's also quite gentle to shoot and will still do the job. A max load from the little 20" Marlin really puts you in your place! It's not unpleasant but it's firm!

Where abouts are you in the country?
 
Hello NJC, thank for your reply, any info you can pass on will be very welcome. I live in South Devon and I buy most of my shooting gear from the Sportsman in Exeter. They can get the marlin in .444 in walnut blued 22ins barrel, or the stainless laminated 24in barrel special order for mid feb 2010. The only trouble is, someone suggested a Winchester model 94 timber carbine with 18in ported barrel, so now I will have to read up on this make and model also before I order :rolleyes: thanks PJ
 
I shoot with a .444 marlin which i use for deer wildboar and pest control .
I have used factory ammo in 240 grs but they cost about £45 for 20.I reload using 265 gr flat soft points hornadys and 47grs of reloader 7 for a velocity of around 2200fps so not to shabby .I also down load for use at my gun club indoor range for practice with cast lead bullets and 20 grs of 2400 .
The .444 is a very easy rifle to shoot with and mine groups around 1,1/2 " @ 100 yards and is good out to 200-250 yards ,200 yards is long range around here any way.
I would stay away from Winchesters as they are not as reliable to work and feed.


I also have a BLR81 in 308 which uses a rack and pinion system to work the bolt and is the
smoothest of all the under levers and also has a box mag.

Bob.

Ps .the deer do not know the difference between 2000 fps and 3000fps
 
reiver said:
I would stay away from Winchesters as they are not as reliable to work and feed.

Got to agree. I have owned 2 Winchesters and would never have another. I now shoot a Marlin and have never had any feed or reliability issues

IMHO ported barrels certainly reduce felt recoil (I had a ported barrel on my 338 lap mag) but the noise is horrendous and I would personally stay away for use on deer.
 
Hello again bit of a late night trawling through the internet looking at all the options well most of them winchester etc. And reading your replies and i have decided for me it will have to be the marlin .444 now all that i have to decide is 22in walnut or the 24in laminated stainless. mind you it will have to be fitted with a periscope its rained so much down here lately :lol:. Printing variation form as i type i will let you know how i get on.If any body has any further info with reguards to reloading the .444 dies and componats please let me know. Again thanks for you help PJ
 
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