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Thread: shooting rifle without fac .

  1. #1

    shooting rifle without fac .

    hi is it legal for someone over the age of 18 to shoot a rifle on private land with out holding a fac ,but being supervised buy some one that does and using there rifle.
    only I have been told that you cant .and can only do so if it is an estate rifle.
    which makes me think how do you get experience with rifles, if you cant legally shoot them.
    an example would be my shooting pal has the shooting rights on lots of land ,holds fac for 22lr 17hmr 223 243 308 can I legally shoot his rifle with him supervising me .
    thanks neill.

  2. #2
    I believe the answer is yes if you are within earshot of one another... I'm not suggesting you ever have been a naughty boy but if one was to have a criminal record (for a serious violent crime for example) would you be able to enjoy the same privilege be it an estate rifle or not?! Be interested to see what everyone thinks

  3. #3
    SD Regular willie_gunn's Avatar
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    The answer is yes, see http://basc.org.uk/wp-content/plugin...load.php?id=38 for full details.

    Out of interest, who was it who told you that you can't?

    The term "estate rifle" has no legal definition, but is used to describe exactly the conditions you have specified - i.e. someone who doesn't hold a FAC borrowing a rifle, or someone borrowing a rifle that is not on their FAC, from the occupier or servant of the occupier (who has that rifle on their FAC) to use on private premises under their supervision.

    willie_gunn

    P.S. If you do a search for "estate rifle" on the site you will find numerous threads on the subject, not all of which necessarily come to the same conclusion!
    Last edited by willie_gunn; 31-01-2014 at 17:05.
    O wad some Power the giftie gie us to see oursels as ithers see us!

  4. #4
    Im sure you can, quick call to FEO/BASC? Thats what their there for
    If it ain't broke don't fiddle with it!
    Not even a little..........................(unless you can fix it, properly fix it, working and everything.......like PROPPER working!!)

  5. #5
    only reason I ask is have put in for my fac ,and if I had shot my mates rifles ,and I told the feo that when he visits would not want to get in trouble.
    I would think the more experience the better.

  6. #6
    What an 'estate rifle' encompasses is a bit of a grey area when you take the rifle in question out of the context of 'landowners' or 'servant of landowner' (employee/leaseholder of sporting rights). I certainly would not allow any non-certificate holder to leave my side with one of my firearms. They would always be within arms reach!

  7. #7
    It's a crazy thing with our firearm laws - you can borrow a rifle under supervision, but not a shotgun and not a FAC shotgun. A shotgun can only be lent by the owner of the land.

    Section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 (England & Wales) makes it an offence to discharge a firearm within 50 ft of the centre of a highway with vehicular rights without lawful authority or excuse, if as a result a user of the highway is injured, interrupted or endangered.

  8. #8
    SD Regular willie_gunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apache View Post
    It's a crazy thing with our firearm laws - you can borrow a rifle under supervision, but not a shotgun and not a FAC shotgun. A shotgun can only be lent by the owner of the land.
    Are you quite sure about that?

    http://basc.org.uk/wp-content/plugins/download-monitor/download.php?id=39


    Is it an Offence If I Loan a Shotgun to Someone? | Future Law

    willie_gunn

    P.S. Also found this on the Met Police's website: FAQs - Metropolitan Police Service

    Another way to shoot shotguns and even rifles without a certificate is when you are accompanied by the landowner or his agent, (e.g. game warden), shooting on his land, using his weapons within the limitations of the authorities on the certificate.


    However, as a non-certificate holder, you cannot borrow another person's gun, if he is not the occupier of the land you intend to shoot on.
    Of course that then leads into the definition of "occupier":

    The term “occupier” is not defined in the Firearms Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning. However, the Firearms Consultative Committee in their 5th Annual report recommended that the provisions of section 27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in relation to any land, other than the foreshore, includes any person having any right of hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or fish’.
    Last edited by willie_gunn; 31-01-2014 at 17:27.
    O wad some Power the giftie gie us to see oursels as ithers see us!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Seanpaul View Post
    I believe the answer is yes if you are within earshot of one another... I'm not suggesting you ever have been a naughty boy but if one was to have a criminal record (for a serious violent crime for example) would you be able to enjoy the same privilege be it an estate rifle or not?! Be interested to see what everyone thinks
    NO.
    Being within earshot is NOT being under supervision, you could be in earshot whilst on the other side of a busy road.

    HWH.

  10. #10
    Misconception. There is no such thing as an "Estate rifle" in the firearms law.

    There is what is known as the "estate rifle condition" (search for The Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 Section 16) which allows someone to borrow a rifle for use on land where the owner of the rifle has lawful authority to shoot (grey point the first, the law says "the occupier" which is not further defined. Occupier might in some cases be taken to mean the owner, or someone who lives there, or possibly someone who has shooting rights over the land. It's almost universally agreed that this does not include someone doing volunteer pest control, unless there is some kind of written agreement ensuring the right to shoot. Of course, if you take the definition given in the act mentioned above (Wildlife and Countryside Act) "occupier" can be taken to mean "ANY person having shooting rights over the land". What are "shooting rights"? Is verbal permission from the owner good enough? Yet another grey point!)), as long as the rifle is used only under supervision (ok, the law says "in the presence of" grey point the second, as discussed above, do you need to be close enough to intervene, or is it ok to be far away but close enough to shout at them and see them?) of "either the occupier or a servant of the occupier" (grey point the third, who is classed as a servant. Also note that although you can be "in the presence of" a servant, the legislation would seem to suggest that the owner of the rifle must be the occupier) as long as the person supervising has an FAC relating to the weapon, conditioned to allow the type of shooting to be carried out. Also note that the conditions relevant are those on the FAC under which the rifle fired is held. It matters not a jot if you hold an open FAC, you still cannot shoot someone elses rifle on land that it's not approved for if their ticket is closed. Nor can you shoot something that their certificate is not conditioned for. For example if you have deer on your FAC but they do not, but you are shooting their rifle that is not held on your FAC then you can't shoot deer with it.

    As to the post above, the legislation says "in the presence is" not "under the supervision of". A big distinction!

    The take away point here is, the legislation is not clear when it comes to firearms, on anything!
    Last edited by matt_hooks; 31-01-2014 at 18:47.

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