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Thread: update on the downed aircraft ammo and air crew coins found so far.

  1. #1
    SD Regular bobjs's Avatar
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    update on the downed aircraft ammo and air crew coins found so far.

    well now we have some more that has just been collected for disposal.

    The search is spiradic but will continue when the area is in better condition to allow us to do so (just a wee bit wet)

    took some pictures of both the ammo, coins and a allo rivit found over 400 yards from the crash site and its definetly from the same air craft.

    the coins are in poor condition but one shows the date of 1919.

    the small belted ammo round has no markings on the base so im still at a lose as to what cal it is.

    the 50 cal rounds have

    dw 4 and tw 4 on there base and the 20mm is as you see it, metal bullet (we think for defeating armour/or hitting steem trains with etc.)

    there is loads of bits of the aircraft that has been collected but is away at thi time for inspection, and the display box i made to display the ammo cases given by paul'o has been deamed to small by the boss so a new one has been ordered.


    Attachment 38034Attachment 38035Attachment 38033Attachment 38036Attachment 38037Attachment 38038Attachment 38039
    Last edited by bobjs; 13-02-2014 at 15:21.
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  2. #2
    First one (belted?) looks like a .303
    (The Unspeakable In Pursuit Of The Uneatable.) " If I can help, I will help!." Former S.A.C.S. member!

  3. #3
    The 20 mm looks like a 20x110 Hispano Suiza which would fit with it being RAF or USAF at that time rather than a Oerlikon round which has a rebated rim.

    The small caliber munition I would say is a .303 and the fifty cal rounds look like .50 BMG rather than the Vickers version.

    The T W 4 .50 round was manufactured by Twin cities ordnance plant in 1944, duno about the D W one.

    Here's a link to some .50 cal headstamps. WWII 50 Caliber Headstamps

  4. #4
    ask mod boys for a 20 even some link if its still there could ya ! no prod thanks as it could be API OR APE ,its in very nice nick & been nice if it all had been used'd before they came down .

  5. #5
    Hi bobjs

    I think that the small calibre round might be .303 on a metal link for a browning .303 machine gun .I have some .303 on metal link that came from a Bristol Beaufighter _( that crashed on a fell close to my home.The rounds i had were all on one belt and were marked K (kynock)1941 BV1z (ball powder not cordite and loaded with incendiary bullets)r
    In British aircraft each machine gun was loaded with one type of ammo eg a spitfire with 8 guns
    would be loaded with 1 gun ball,1 gun amour piercing, 1 one gun incendiary and 1 gun tracer on each wing.
    were as The USA would load each belt with 1 incendiary, 1 Ball, 1 tracer , 1 Amour piercing all on the same belt.

    The ammo though more than 45 years old when I tried some of it through my 1908 Smle all went bang though some of it did need 2 or 3 goes to go off .
    I still have 1 round left which i kept as a reminder .
    It pays to be careful with old ordinance as it may still "bite" after all these years.

    "a man does good business when he rids himself of a turd"

  6. #6
    your 20mm Hispano canno case, with a headstamp of 'R.H 1943 20mm' was made by good old Raleigh Cycles

    found you some light reading for them how just love the bigger stuff i forget was this a B25 bob !
    The 20x105B "Short Solothurn" only saw service in anti-tank rifles specifically the Solothurn S18-100 series. Several other cartridges subsequently emerged with the same case diameter (although without the belt), so it is possible, although far from certain, that the Solothurn at least inspired these developments.
    The 15x96 and the 20x82 form one of the best known pairings. Early in World War 2 the Luftwaffe introduced an excellent new gun, the Mauser MG 151, firing a 15mm high-velocity cartridge. Good as it was, a clamour for more destructive power arose and led to the case being necked out to form the 20mm MG151/20 round. The extra HE capacity was considered well worth the loss in muzzle velocity and the larger cartridge virtually replaced its predecessor. Modified versions of the 20mm gun and cartridge are still in production in South Africa, under the designation Vektor GAl.
    Another European cartridge of the 1930s with the same case diameter is the 15x104 for the Czech ZB vz/60 MG, made in the UK as the 15mm Besa. Again, any actual relationship with the 20x105B is unclear.
    During WW2, the Japanese Army Air Force made some use of the MG 151/20, but also developed their own gun, the Ho-5 (ironically based on the Browning M2) in 20x94 calibre, which appears to be a stretched MG 151/20.
    The French-designed 20mm Hispano-Suiza HS 404 (20x110) was the classic RAF fighter weapon for most of WW2 (and a decade thereafter). Again, the rim and case diameters are virtually identical to the other cartridges here, so perhaps the 20x105B also had something to do with this.
    The Americans made some use of the Hispano, but were always more interested in muzzle velocity, so they couldn't resist necking the case down to .50 calibre to create the .50 High Velocity (12.7x120) of the WW2 era. This effort remained experimental. Nearly half a century later, FN were seeking to develop a more powerful replacement for the .50" Browning, better able to penetrate light armoured vehicles (in effect, a Western equivalent to the Soviet 14.5mm KPV). FN initially selected the 20mm Hispano case as a basis and necked it down to 15mm for the FN-BRG (15x115). The weapon and its ammunition had a protracted development and finally emerged as a 15.5mm, as we shall see.
    Last edited by paul o'; 13-02-2014 at 19:02.

  7. #7
    Most interesting, you guys got any idea what this one could be from, it came up in my nets about 30 miles out in the English channel, I was guessing it might of been an anti aircraft round, its a bit corroded but stamped 20mm, 1940, and what looks like BMA plus some other figures after the 20mm that I can't quite make out.

    Attachment 38045Attachment 38046

  8. #8
    could it read 20 MM IZ BMA RC"

    it may be from a 20mm Hispano it was being actively investigated as an aircraft armament from before the war. The Ordnance Board were considering the various ammunition designs from about 1937

    Hispano Suiza supplied a set of drawings and sample ammunition in December 1937. Although the first cannon armed aircraft (A Hurricane Mark IIC) did not enter service until 1941, the RAF were actively testing the gun and ammunition from about mid 1939.

    Falcon - the main use of 20mm anti aircraft guns was with the Oerlikon, although the Hispano was used. The simplified Oerlikon, known as the Polsten, was the main light mobile AA gun used in single and double mounts.

    might help you out if not try to do a rubbing of the head stamp and repost it .i love this kind of stuff
    nice to get my brain working again.

  9. #9
    Nice one, cheers Paul o I will give rubbing a go, it does look like IZ but what looks like a G or maybe a 6 as well after the IZ.

  10. #10
    Reminds me of a lady member of my old pistol club who took up diving. The diving club were attempting to recover a spitfire that had come down on the mudflats on the Welsh side of the Bristol channel not too far from the Severn Bridge. The story was that the aircraft came down when chasing the Luftwaffe raiding Bristol during the second world war. Well Anthea turned up one night with half a bucket of badly corroded .303 ammo that they had recovered and wondered if it was any use to any of us that owned .303 rifles. Nobody was willing to chance it.
    It's the calibre of the shooter that counts not the calibre of the rifle.

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