Shooting Roe bucks out of season for crop protection

Erik Hamburger

Well-Known Member
Some advise please: One of my landowners is a vegetable grower and now has serious crop damage to the cabbages from deer (Muntjac and Roe) and suffering substantial financial loss as a result.
Apart from getting his request and permission to shoot all deer, including Roe bucks (Currently out of season) in writing, are there any other legal obligations or boxes to tick?

(Btw, I am aware of the fact that it would be counter-productive to shoot any mature, dominant roe bucks now, as it would simply lead to an increased population of young Roe bucks later on)

Thank you for any advice /comments.
 
Assuming you shoot them in the act of eating the crops and your acting on his behalf then no,its in the deer act somewhere.
 
up here in Scotland you can shoot male deer any time off the year if they are doing damage in enclosed ground or are damaging crops without having a out off season licence. SNH give you advise on this matter, could not tell you who to contact in England sorry
 
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WO HOLD ON! shooting an uninjured deer out of season is breaking the law without specific authorisation in Scotland, England and Wales. That's why we have open seasons to play with!

The SNH authorisations in Scotland is explained here:
Authorisations - Scottish Natural Heritage

The situation in England and Wales here:
http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/91.pdf

Be warned though the S7 'farmers defence' is just that, a defence you may have to use in court to defend your position for shooting a deer out of season. Anyone fancy the costs of defending their position against a private prosecution by the RSPCA???
 
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He has permission in writing from who? Natural England? There is absolutely no welfare issue with shooting male deer at any time of the year.
I would suggest that you discretely do what needs to be done.;)
MS
 
WO HOLD ON! shooting an uninjured deer out of season is breaking the law without specific authorisation in Scotland, England and Wales. That's why we have open seasons to play with!

The SNH authorisations in Scotland is explained here:
Authorisations - Scottish Natural Heritage

The situation in England and Wales here:
http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/91.pdf

Be warned though the S7 'farmers defence' is just that, a defence you may have to use in court to defend your position for shooting a deer out of season. Anyone fancy the costs of defending their position against a private prosecution by the RSPCA???

Just to add to that.... authorisation to shoot out of season will only be granted once all other options have been exhausted.

I find it quite worrying that so much wrong advice is offered on this forum.... You can't just go shooting deer out of season and then claim farmers defence unless;
1. You are a farmer (or have it in writing that the farmer will back you up if the brown stuff hits the spinny round thing)
2. You have tried all other means to prevent damage
3. You only shoot them in the area that the damage is being caused
4. You have the relevant authority from SNH or DI

You could do as MS suggests, do it discretely.... but then again you could have done that without announcing it on here ;)
 
He has permission in writing from who? Natural England? There is absolutely no welfare issue with shooting male deer at any time of the year.
I would suggest that you discretely do what needs to be done.;)
MS

I think you meant to say 'discreetly', but if you do or advise this then you are very much on your own so the inadvertent use of the word does apply. I'm with Paul F. here, and would be the first to report anyone I found doing this. The onus would then be on the perp to produce the proper official written authorisation, or if not to plead his cause.

There are just too many examples coming up on SD lately of dodgy interpretation of wildlife law which might be taken as gospel. I hope the collective experience here will wade in to condemn stupid advice of this kind whenever it's posted.
 
There are just too many examples coming up on SD lately of dodgy interpretation of wildlife law which might be taken as gospel. I hope the collective experience here will wade in to condemn stupid advice of this kind whenever it's posted.

Agree with all of the above and add that a simple call to your shooting organisation will confirm or otherwise the validity of the advice obtained from this or any other forum.
 
I think you meant to say 'discreetly', but if you do or advise this then you are very much on your own so the inadvertent use of the word does apply. I'm with Paul F. here, and would be the first to report anyone I found doing this. The onus would then be on the perp to produce the proper official written authorisation, or if not to plead his cause.

There are just too many examples coming up on SD lately of dodgy interpretation of wildlife law which might be taken as gospel. I hope the collective experience here will wade in to condemn stupid advice of this kind whenever it's posted.




The requirement to get a licence from Natural England to cull deer out of season refers to deer on unenclosed land i.e. not enclosed or farm land.
Unenclosed land is typically moorland which is uncultivated which self evidently has no crops for the deer to eat.

This page from the Deer Initiave states that marauding deer can be shot when damaging crops, no licence or contact with NE is requried.
Section 7 of the Deer Act 1991.
http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/91.pdf

It offers the farmer the opportunity to protect his crops with a shotgun if required.

So who do you believe, the Deer Initiative with its experitse or some bloke with an opinion?
 
Agree with all of the above and add that a simple call to your shooting organisation will confirm or otherwise the validity of the advice obtained from this or any other forum.

I put a scenario to BASC and they supported my contention that I could validly shoot out of season to prevent damage.

It might be described as a "farmer's defence" but the CPS would, I suggest, not embark on a prosecution in the full knowledge that the S7 defence would be offered at any proceedings. The RSPCA on the other hand, may just do that, if there was mileage in it for them. But they have bigger fish to fry, although they can and do undertake private prosecutions at little risk to their finances.

S7 Deer Act 1991:

7
Exceptions for occupiers etc. of land where deer are.E+W
(1)Subject to subsection (3) below, a person to whom this section applies shall not be guilty of an offence under section 2 above by reason of—

(a)the taking or killing of any deer by means of shooting, or

(b)the injuring of any deer by means of shooting in an attempt to take or kill it,
on any cultivated land, pasture or enclosed woodland.

(2)Subject to subsection (3) below, a person to whom this section applies shall not be guilty of an offence under section 4(2)(a) above by reason of the use, for the purpose of taking or killing any deer on any land, of any smooth-bore gun of not less gauge than 12 bore which is loaded with—

(a)a cartridge containing a single non-spherical projectile weighing not less than 22.68 grammes (350 grains); or

(b)a cartridge purporting to contain shot each of which is .203 inches (5.16 millimetres) in diameter (that is to say, size AAA).

(3)A person to whom this section applies shall not be entitled to rely on the defence provided by subsection (1) or subsection (2) above as respects anything done in relation to any deer on any land unless he shows that—

(a)he had reasonable grounds for believing that deer of the same species were causing, or had caused, damage to crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber or any other form of property on the land;

(b)it was likely that further damage would be so caused and any such damage was likely to be serious; and

(c)his action was necessary for the purpose of preventing any such damage.


(4)The persons to whom this section applies are—

(a)the occupier of the land on which the action is taken;

(b)any member of the occupier’s household normally resident on the occupier’s land, acting with the written authority of the occupier;

(c)any person in the ordinary service of the occupier on the occupier’s land, acting with the written authority of the occupier; and

(d)any person having the right to take or kill deer on the land on which the action is taken or any person acting with the written authority of a person having that right.
 
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I would contact your insurance underwriter and ask for their advice, as I'm not convinced that the 'farmer' would be underwriting your legal defence.
 
I think you meant to say 'discreetly', but if you do or advise this then you are very much on your own so the inadvertent use of the word does apply. I'm with Paul F. here, and would be the first to report anyone I found doing this. The onus would then be on the perp to produce the proper official written authorisation, or if not to plead his cause.

There are just too many examples coming up on SD lately of dodgy interpretation of wildlife law which might be taken as gospel. I hope the collective experience here will wade in to condemn stupid advice of this kind whenever it's posted.

I think you will find that my advice given is of a sound basis, as it generally is! The law in England is also quite clear on this. The OP even suggests that written permission has been granted, presumably by Natural England (Note: the Deer Initiative have no authority in such matters as has been also suggested), not that their permission would appear to be required in this case as it is a fairly clear case of crop protection.
I will however admit to a miss-spelling of dicreetly as the word was intended!:rolleyes:
My suggestion to act discreetly was so that the OP didn't receive any unwelcome attention from uninformed do-gooders such as the RSPCA or even persons such as yourself that clearly don't fully understand English Deer law.
Whilst I am not a fan of shooting female deer out of season in any circumstances, there is no welfare issue in shooting out of season bucks/stags. In fact, any close season at all for male deer is loosely arguable!
I await your retraction in that my advice given, was in fact NOT stupid!
MS
 
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MS

You are, as you know, completely correct in your advice.

The law fortunately, accepts and understands that deer can and do cause considerable financial damage to growing crops, hence S7. I find it extraordinary that some stalkers refuse to accept this fact and in order to further their own views muddy the water with incorrect and irrelevant advice.

The law is quite specific on the subject and on occasion I have resorted to using this exemption to save my business from considerable financial loss. No licenses are required, no one needs to be informed and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the DI, NE or any other quango and I can assure everyone that the police are on the landowners side.

Quite why some think it acceptable for a landowner/farmer to lose many thousands of pounds when there is a simple legal solution is beyond me.
 
MS

You are, as you know, completely correct in your advice.

The law fortunately, accepts and understands that deer can and do cause considerable financial damage to growing crops, hence S7. I find it extraordinary that some stalkers refuse to accept this fact and in order to further their own views muddy the water with incorrect and irrelevant advice.

The law is quite specific on the subject and on occasion I have resorted to using this exemption to save my business from considerable financial loss. No licenses are required, no one needs to be informed and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the DI, NE or any other quango and I can assure everyone that the police are on the landowners side.

Quite why some think it acceptable for a landowner/farmer to lose many thousands of pounds when there is a simple legal solution is beyond me.

:thumb::tiphat:
MS
 
This subject crops up quite regularly and we never reach a conclusion.... the bottom line is if you trust that the farmer who asked you to get rid of the deer will stand behind you in court and vouch for your actions then crack on (in England and Wales)

In Scotland, get authority from SNH ;)
 
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