Rifle and calibre conumdrum

Snagman

Well-Known Member
Hi guys, yes it’s another calibre thread but one I could use a bit of input with.

I’m putting this in the big game thread as the intended rifle would be mostly used for overseas hunting and maybe a bit of use back here for visitors needing to borrow a rifle or a spare if my working gun is in the shop.

First I think I should give you a bit of background on my current setup before we get to the meat of it. Currently for my overseas rifles I have 2 rigs the first is a M03 in .30-06, it fit’s me like a glove and is great up close on moving targets with the 1-6x24 Swaro and I have a second 3-12x56 Ziess in it’s own QD mounts for use as a general purpose rifle. My second rifle was bought as a mountain and plains rifle after a trip out to northern Namibia which highlighted my lack of experience at longer range shooting. It’s a Sako 85 SS hunter in 7mm Rem mag with a Khales 4.5-18x50, a real track driver and with the scope using either the ret for holdover or dialling in (Yeah like I ever have time for that) I feel happy shooting out to around 4-500 yards.

Now the 7mm is for use overseas hunting in places and at ranges that are outwith the norm for general Deer Stalking over here so please bear that in mind and let’s not have a long range rage thread or I will ask the Mods for a lock.

I have been looking for a way to combine these two rifles now for quite while but I keep coming up short. The main reason I would like to do this is since Rigby is back in London and now producing a .416 in semi obtainable money I would like to finish off my inventory with a Big Game rifle. However I would like to make some space and simplify my ammunition requirements which currently covers 150 grain .30-06, 180 grain .30-06 and 162 grain 7mm Rem mag. The latter two are becoming more sporadic and I have to order them in more often than not, which means I have to travel to the other side of Scotland to pick it up.

I’ve thought long and hard about a .300 Win Mag but I borrowed one once and it kicked the living daylights out of me and I’m a big enough lad 6’ 1” 90kg and very fit. It might have just been the rifle itself an old Ruger 77 All Weather with a rubbish plastic stock but I don’t have fond memories of the .300.

I’m looking for suggestions on calibre and possible rifle combinations including scopes. The suggested rifle could be used on Boar in Croatia, Chamois in the Austrian mountains, Zebra on the plains and Kopies of Namibia or Eland in wait a minute thorn. Also the calibre must be available the world over. I suppose that maybe I should just keep the two rifles as such a thing may not be effectively possible but I thought I would ask the question, thanks in advance.
 
Hi Snagman,
You have an intersting situation to resolve ! Choice of calibre is a very personal thing, and you have covered the options well. I think you might have been unfortunate in your experience with the 300win mag. If you can cope with the 30 06 in 180 grain, and the 7mm Rem mag in 162 grain, I would have thought the 300 win mag should not have beaten you up. If you are going to spend money on getting it "right", I would go for the 300 win mag in a custom stock that really fits you, and is of adequate weight, and is designed to give you a cheek weld with the scope you fit, (which may mean an adjustable comb), and you have the ideal rifle for African Plains Game at full range. I believe Mike Norris (on SD) uses one to great affect in Africa.
Hope this helps, John.
 
Why not a second barrel on the Mauser in another cal ? I had a similar problem and went for the .300 WM as a second barrel which I have used on two international trips on my Mo3. A friend of mine went for a .375 on his Mo3 for international forays but also added the stock suppressor to reduce recoil. That adds probably 500 grams but it is removable between trips.
 
Hi Snagman,
You have an intersting situation to resolve ! Choice of calibre is a very personal thing, and you have covered the options well. I think you might have been unfortunate in your experience with the 300win mag. If you can cope with the 30 06 in 180 grain, and the 7mm Rem mag in 162 grain, I would have thought the 300 win mag should not have beaten you up. If you are going to spend money on getting it "right", I would go for the 300 win mag in a custom stock that really fits you, and is of adequate weight, and is designed to give you a cheek weld with the scope you fit, (which may mean an adjustable comb), and you have the ideal rifle for African Plains Game at full range. I believe Mike Norris (on SD) uses one to great affect in Africa.
Hope this helps, John.

I have been kind of leaning towards this option, it's just I'm somewhat reserved about going through all the rigmarole and then having a custom gun built only for me not to like it. Recoil isn't generally an issue for me certainly I put a good few rounds through my CZ .375 before I sold her and I have no qualms shooting a .416 but it was the short sharp smack I got from the .300 that put me off, I can only assume that the stock was too short and narrow.
I'll have to think about it a bit more, thanks for the input.
 
Why not a second barrel on the Mauser in another cal ? I had a similar problem and went for the .300 WM as a second barrel which I have used on two international trips on my Mo3. A friend of mine went for a .375 on his Mo3 for international forays but also added the stock suppressor to reduce recoil. That adds probably 500 grams but it is removable between trips.

Hi Prometheus,
I had considered just getting a 7mm Rem mag barrel for the M03 but I would quite like to just have a single setup so I only have one standard rifle for overseas. Certainly if I just re calibre I would likely do it with the M03 for simplicity.
 
You don't mention the accuracy of your .30-06. Are you not as confident in it for long range work as in your Sako 7mm RM? Because the .30-06 can certainly shoot as flat as 7mm RM for all practical purposes. And with a good 200-gr bullet, at the ranges one expect to encounter such things, it will shoot almost lengthwise through a Grizzly bear. There's your Eland rifle. And the M03 takes down for easy packing.

And why the .416 Rigby? How much would you get to use it? An angry Cape Buffalo is the only thing I can think of where a .375 H&H might not be sufficient to break bones.

Some of my traveling rifles are Tikka T3 SS in .30-06, Steyr 7x64 with iron sights and QD rings, SIG SHR 970 in .280 Rem.... so my suggestion is to keep what you have and buy something lighter, like a Tikka T3 SS or Sako Finnlight in .270 Winchester.
 
You don't mention the accuracy of your .30-06. Are you not as confident in it for long range work as in your Sako 7mm RM? Because the .30-06 can certainly shoot as flat as 7mm RM for all practical purposes. And with a good 200-gr bullet, at the ranges one expect to encounter such things, it will shoot almost lengthwise through a Grizzly bear. There's your Eland rifle. And the M03 takes down for easy packing.

And why the .416 Rigby? How much would you get to use it? An angry Cape Buffalo is the only thing I can think of where a .375 H&H might not be sufficient to break bones.

Some of my traveling rifles are Tikka T3 SS in .30-06, Steyr 7x64 with iron sights and QD rings, SIG SHR 970 in .280 Rem.... so my suggestion is to keep what you have and buy something lighter, like a Tikka T3 SS or Sako Finnlight in .270 Winchester.

I am confident with the .30-06 it shoots around an inch to inch and a half from field positions and smaller off a bench but I've had better luck with the 7mm RM at ranges over 300 yards on large bodied game, I might be wrong but it just seems to have more oomp and penetrate better than the .30-06 at range in my experience. I've never pushed the .30-06 past 300 yards as I had the 7mm RM for that so I can't say yay or nay since it's not set up for shooting at longer ranges but it's a thought.

The .416 Rigby is actually for Buffalo might be a few more years but I do intend to go after one.

As for picking up another rifle for traveling I am a bit limited by licensing over here which is why I would like to bring the two rifles together into one unit. I have a .270 as my working gun but it is not useable as an overseas rifle. I had looked into .280 Remington a while ago but ammo is basically non existent for my location, 7x64 is a bit better. I do reload but I don't want to use reloaded ammo in Africa as I can't replicate the conditions here for proper testing.

Good stuff keep it coming guys.
 
I have been sat here trying to think what I would do if I was in you position. I have no experience with the Mo3 but it does sound like you are trying to get 10lb of s**t into a 5lb bag. A 30.06 and a .375 set up in your M03 would give you a lot of options and you can get ammunition anywhere in the world. Add the fact that you can swap out your scopes and you are in business. If you didnt like the 300wm then a .416 might not be for you. If you just fancy a big game rifle, then that is something different. Having never hunted a Buffalo a don't have a lot of experience but I wouldnt like to try it with anything smaller than a .375 and I cant imagine shooting antelope at 400m with a .375 either. Lots of different ways to do it but a 30.06 and a .375 would take some beating. I would love an excuse to buy a 9.3 barrel and an aimpoint for my Blaser:) Not a bad problem to have.

Ezzy
 
I have been sat here trying to think what I would do if I was in you position. I have no experience with the Mo3 but it does sound like you are trying to get 10lb of s**t into a 5lb bag. A 30.06 and a .375 set up in your M03 would give you a lot of options and you can get ammunition anywhere in the world. Add the fact that you can swap out your scopes and you are in business. If you didnt like the 300wm then a .416 might not be for you. If you just fancy a big game rifle, then that is something different. Having never hunted a Buffalo a don't have a lot of experience but I wouldnt like to try it with anything smaller than a .375 and I cant imagine shooting antelope at 400m with a .375 either. Lots of different ways to do it but a 30.06 and a .375 would take some beating. I would love an excuse to buy a 9.3 barrel and an aimpoint for my Blaser:) Not a bad problem to have.

Ezzy

Heh yeah that's quite an apt quote for this situation. It's a bit tricky as I feel my current rigs cover me very well such as if I'm going hunting in the thick stuff take the .30-06 or if I'm heading out on the plains or mountains take the 7mm RM both have advantages and drawbacks but each is tailored to do a job and I'm beginning to think that no one rifle could really do it all.

As for the .416 Rigby I found it not too bad in the recoil department of the 2 rifles I fired it in more of a big shove compared to the short smack of the .300 but both rifles fitted me pretty well, I don't know if it was this or the lower pressure of the cartridge but it didn't bother me. But I don't want to use the M03 for Dangerous game as I'm not happy with the set up as a DG rifle I would rather a dedicated rifle for that, the M03 scope mount bridge makes top loading a big magnum cartridge difficult and it's got a detachable mag which I don't want on a DG rifle.

I really don't know, a friend suggested I get rid of my old .270 working gun and start using the .30-06 in it's place but they again are very different rifles. Maybe I just need to suck it up and try out a couple of .300 rifles or get another safe for the .416 when it comes around if old plod is fine with another rifle.

But again some good stuff keep the feedback coming guys.
 
Most people find the sharp recoil of all the .300 magnums to be quite unpleasant. The .375 H&H has twice the ft-lbs of a heavy .30-06, but usually a bit slower than the .300 mags, especially in a heavier rifle like a Winchester M70 Express or CZ 550.

The .375 H&H and 9.3x62mm are the minimum for cape buffalo in most of Africa.

A .375 with a 270-gr bullet has about the same trajectory as a .30-06 with a 180 gr. I have enjoyed having Model 70s with the same sights in .308, .30-06 and .375, Mausers in 8x57 and .375, and Sakos in .308 Win and .375. The Sako is like the Remington 700 in being much lighter, and the recoil more quick. My personal taste is a that a .375 needs to be in a magnum sized action, barrel and stock, with a 22 or 23 inch barrel being ideal. Most of all, it needs to fit you and point quickly. That is why I have bought and sold seven .375s, some of them very good for me. And by the way, a .375 with a 235 gr bullet is as much a 400 yard rifle as a .338 Win Mag is.
 
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Snagman, .416 is probably a bit big for what you want it to do. I do understand the desire for a Rigby though. If you look at Rigby's Facebook page they show some guys working on new rifles in .30-06 and .308. (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=495095647263762&set=pcb.495095697263757&type=1&theater)

So, Rigby might be able to build you an "affordable" plains game rifle. Have you thought about .338WM?

I shot a .300WM in a short stocked "mountain rifle" configuration as well. Beat the whatsits out of me. Try another one would be my advice.

ATB,

Scrummy
 
Most people find the sharp recoil of all the .300 magnums to be quite unpleasant. The .375 H&H has twice the ft-lbs of a heavy .30-06, but usually a bit slower than the .300 mags, especially in a heavier rifle like a Winchester M70 Express or CZ 550.

The .375 H&H and 9.3x62mm are the minimum for cape buffalo in most of Africa.

A .375 with a 270-gr bullet has about the same trajectory as a .30-06 with a 180 gr. I have enjoyed having Model 70s with the same sights in .308, .30-06 and .375, Mausers in 8x57 and .375, and Sakos in .308 Win and .375. The Sako is like the Remington 700 in being much lighter, and the recoil more quick. My personal taste is a that a .375 needs to be in a magnum sized action, barrel and stock, with a 22 or 23 inch barrel being ideal. Most of all, it needs to fit you and point quickly. That is why I have bought and sold seven .375s, some of them very good for me. And by the way, a .375 with a 235 gr bullet is as much a 400 yard rifle as a .338 Win Mag is.

I did used to have a .375 and it was effective at most normal ranges but I can only get hold of 300 grain ammunition and at £85 a box it was pretty expensive to run as my second rifle. It faired well enough at ranges up to 250 yards but I felt I needed something that I could carry for miles and then take a longish shot as my experiences in Namibia had shown me. That was my main reason for braking the .375 to the .30-06 for more average hunting work that required a bigger stronger bullet i.e Boar in Croatia or big Antelope in the bush and then have the 7mm for plains and mountain hunting. At that stage I wasn't looking for hunting any dangerous game so I didn't need a heavy calibre rifle but I'm intending to go after Buffalo in the next couple of years and I would like to free up some space for my licence. I can get hold of most common calibre's but only in their primary loadings which limit's me a bit.
 
Snagman, .416 is probably a bit big for what you want it to do. I do understand the desire for a Rigby though. If you look at Rigby's Facebook page they show some guys working on new rifles in .30-06 and .308. (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=495095647263762&set=pcb.495095697263757&type=1&theater)

So, Rigby might be able to build you an "affordable" plains game rifle. Have you thought about .338WM?

I shot a .300WM in a short stocked "mountain rifle" configuration as well. Beat the whatsits out of me. Try another one would be my advice.

ATB,

Scrummy

Hi Scrummy,

I'm intending the .416 to be solely used as a DG rifle for Buffalo and hopefully Hippo. I did own a .375 a few years ago and one of the reasons I settled on the .416 as my DG calibre was a close encounter with some Pachyderms. I wasn't out hunting them but they came into the camp to get at the water tank, we just backed away quietly into the night we could see there was a fairly large group and I ended up very…. close to one. I'm sure my .375 would have been fine if push came to shove (thankfully it didn't) after that I got extra appreciation for the big beasts of Africa and decided if I was to go after Dangerous game I would want something a tad bigger.

As for having Rigby make a plains rifle for me I hadn't thought of that, I'm sure they would build and stock it correctly so it wouldn't kick me then I would have the 2 rifles as a pair. If they installed QD mounts on the plains rifle I could use a similar setup like I have on the M03 with a close range scope and a bigger one for longer range. Although maybe I could just change the barrel on the M03 and put the Khales on as the second scope for it hmmmm lots to think about, would be nice to have a pair of Rigby's though.

As for the .338 win mag it might fit quite nicely but ammo isn't available for me I would have to special order it every time I needed more.

Cheers,

Snag
 
Snagman, if you are worried about loosing your mag from the Mo3 on a dangerous game hunt and you have the earlier model mo3 without the facility to lock the mag in place, Mauser can retrofit the newer system to prevent that possibility.
 
Snagman, if you are worried about loosing your mag from the Mo3 on a dangerous game hunt and you have the earlier model mo3 without the facility to lock the mag in place, Mauser can retrofit the newer system to prevent that possibility.

I had looked into getting the Maglock retrofitted for just that reason, it wasn't too expensive but I still wasn't very happy with the way the bridge on the scope mount restricted top loading with the .416 rem mag version I looked at. I would just rather a dedicated rifle for DG preferably a magnum Mauser actioned rifle but that's getting a bit off topic for my general overseas rifle.

You said you have an M03 in .300 win mag how do find it? What loads do you like to use or what ones does the rifle like?
 
There is no doubt that the .40s have a lot more punch than the .375s. I had not thought of the difference until a friend went, with another friend of his, on a cape buffalo hunt, and was nearly killed. He managed one shot at a charging bull and hit it on the upper leg bone just under the joint, and the 300 grain bullet deflected off. The PH put two .470s though it from the side, 30 yards away, but both through the chest to now effect. The other hunter hit it between the eyes at about 10 yards and it landed at their feet.

I relay this because to tell you he came home enthused to save up for another hunt, but sold his .375 CZ, and bought an old .416 Rigby at a gun show, a genuine Rigby, and restored it. His friend found a vintage .404 Jeff and restored it. They went back for a less expensive hunt and bagged two buff each. A .416 Remington makes a lot of practical sense, but he was really into it, taking this trip a .318 Westley Richards he had found and restored, and my 1952 Mannlicher Schoenauer 6.5.

So you might want to look for an older .416 or .404 over there, and see ifyou like it.
 
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STICK with your mo3 and buy a 300 barrel I have used mine now on four tips to Africa and it does what it says on the tin with my home loads and I am nine stone ringing wet and 5foot 6 shoot full patch loads no problem all the best in your ploy Chris
 
The advice to get a 300wm barrel from the last poster is sound. I've shot loads of plains game up to and including eland and it performed flawlessly with 200 grain trophy bonded bear claws. I believe your MO3 is quite heavy so that should tame the recoil slightly, mind you, i've never felt recoil when shooting an animal. I also use mine on boar and again don't notice the recoil when shooting driven game.
I also have a 416 rem which I have shot buffalo and zebra with. It was very effective on both and again I did not notice the recoil when shooting at game.
 
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