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Thread: .22LR subs HP; what accuracy should I expect?

  1. #1

    .22LR subs HP; what accuracy should I expect?

    I've had an Anschutz 1417 .22LR for just over a year for shooting rabbits, but don't seem to be getting the accuracy that I hoped for. So I've been experimenting with various things on targets but I've had limited improvement so would welcome any thoughts.

    My setup is:

    Anschutz 1417 .22LR with 14" barrel (about 3 or 4 years old I think)
    Sako moderator
    AGS 3-12x44 SWAT scope
    Hollowpoint subsonic ammunition (see below for brands)

    I generally zero in the field prone off a bipod at 55 yards, i.e. not off a bench at a range, and typically get 18 - 26mm centre-to-centre 5 shot groups but can't seem to consistently improve upon this. From what I've read/heard and hence based my expectations upon, and this may be part of the problem, other shooters regularly talk about ragged one-hole groups or half-inch groups at 50 yards, and one inch groups at 100 yards. At 100 yards I generally get about 50 - 60mm 5 shot groups.

    Things I've tried/checked so far include:

    Checked the barrel is properly free floating. It wasn't originally, but I removed some wood so it is now.

    Checked the scope is mounted correctly and everything is tight but not too tight.

    The muzzle crown looks fine, as far as I can see.

    The moderator seems properly seated on the barrel, and there's no sign of bullets clipping the baffles, etc.

    I tried shooting without the moderator, but it made no difference.

    Different makes of ammo. In subsonic HP I've tried different brands and found RWS marginally better than Eley, and both of these better than Winchester or CCI segmented. In HV I tried CCI Velocitors just out of curiosity but these were hopeless on grouping and far too noisy for my liking.

    Clean or no clean (the barrel, etc). It seems to make no difference to my rifle whether I clean the barrel or not, once the barrel is re-leaded.

    I raised the comb on my stock to improve my cheek-weld/head positioning, and this improved things slightly, but only to my current 18 - 26mm groups.

    I changed from wearing spectacles to contact lenses for shooting, as I noticed that if my glasses slid down my nose I got a slight shift in aim point through the scope.

    I tried hand loading the ammo into the chamber, just in case feeding from the magazine was deforming the bullet in any way, but it made no difference. Ammo chambered from the mag then ejected without firing shows no signs of deformation, scraping, etc.

    Of course the main issue could be my own shooting ability. However, whilst there's always room for improvement I've shot air rifles for many years and get what I consider good groups with springer and PCP air-rifles, so I don't THINK it's all down to me.

    So perhaps my expectations, based on what others say they get with .22LR, are too high? Maybe when others talk about half-inch groups they're actually shooting off a bench + sandbag, perhaps indoors and with match grade ammo? Or, however unlikely, they're exaggerating about their group sizes (I've told them a million times not to do that!)? I know that .22LR ammo is mass produced and hence variable, so is that where the main issue lies?

    Things I'm now thinking about trying include:

    A different scope. However I don't want to go to the expense of buying another scope, possibly an MTC Mamba 4-16x50, if it turns out that my AGS scope is OK after all and something else is causing the inaccuracy. I realise the AGS is a relatively cheap scope, but it serves my needs (assuming it's not the problem of course). Ideally I'd like to borrow a good scope of known reliability to see if this improves things, but I don't know of anyone with a "spare" scope I could borrow.

    Lapping the scope mount rings to ensure the scope is properly seated with no stresses due to poor alignment between the mount rings.

    Trying some target ammo which I presume is more consistent, e.g. Eley Tenex, to see if the variability of HP subsonic ammo is causing my problem.

    I'm basically trying to eliminate factors one by one, so have also wondered about my moderator, but can't see any obvious reason why it should be the cause. Again if I could borrow one then that might help confirm this.

    Sorry for the long post, but any thoughts would be most welcome.


  2. #2
    1-1.5" would be good IMO
    In reality I find HV ammo terrible with regards to accuracy at distance 2" plus is more likely
    even when batched in rim thickness

    I use subs out to 110-120yds with better accuracy

    (that and I own a 17HM2!)

  3. #3
    Sorry what is subsonic hp?
    Is the just normal subsonic stuff?
    Ie Winchester, lapua ect?

    HV stuff is not about right for the sort of accuracy you are getting.

  4. #4
    dont use the hv stick to winnie subs or eley or even remmie ,dont bother about accuracy just shoot loads of bunnies crows squarerules maggies rats leave all that grouping nonesense to the paper punchers mines same setup does bunnies day in day out, atb doug, took parker hale off and put on sak its quieter if you can hit a spud at 75 yards thats good enough
    Last edited by AN DU RU FOX; 28-03-2014 at 18:15.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bewsher500 View Post
    1-1.5" would be good IMO
    In reality I find HV ammo terrible with regards to accuracy at distance 2" plus is more likely
    even when batched in rim thickness

    I use subs out to 110-120yds with better accuracy

    (that and I own a 17HM2!)
    I fully agree get nice groupings with RWS subs compared to the odd flyers with the HV but HV are better in heavier wind than the subs also this maybe strange but I find the accuracy really is effected in regardsto the elevation of my target or quarrie subs are better for ground level shots compared to the HV (please correct me if I am wrong)
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	39876 75yds with 22lr semi. with scope zero'ed to 50 yds . have been told that this could be better with a bolt action
    Last edited by Tulloch; 28-03-2014 at 19:34.

  6. #6
    Ragged one hole groups at 50yds, with a off the shelf gun and ammo, off a bi pod, rabbits in the eye at 100yds, I was also a anti aircraft gunner in the RAF and shot down planes with a catapult.
    I zero at 42 yds, this distance was decided upon, with great scientific trial and error, ( my mates outhouse door in Kansas is that far from his bench on the veranda ) it works for me.
    On a serious note, we asked a group of very experienced shooters one day to estimate a measured distance, most were out by as much as 20yds at 100yds.

  7. #7
    lets put this another way are you shooting bunnies? good now then in or out of vehicle, in vehicle engine ticking over mates fartin wind rockin in a hole on a slope all good fun,stop start whoa whoa charley?, out of vehicle same senario only fresh air at seventy miles an hour in your earhole peeing down heavens hard pitch black hopefully no moon , get the picture good when all this is going on you wont be thinking was that an eley match or remmie or winnie, i have a little draw string bag i use for rimmie ammo i just tip 200 whatever in and go, better than sex, thats what my misses says anyway im not argueing shes bigger than me, atb doug,

  8. #8
    Sorry to hear of your frustrations, but you are right to try and manage the variables, which leaves with you once they have been managed.
    My set-up for .22LR is a Mauser 201, it has a S&B 6x42 mounted on Sportsmatch mounts, a SAK mod and a I fit a Harris to it when using a bipod.
    I now only shoot CCI HP Subsonic segmenting through this rifle. For me (subjective) this is the best ammunition for my rifle, and it genuinely patches at 50m and takes head shots at 100m if I do my part (although I'd prefer to use some fieldcraft and get closer tbh, skills well learnt from air rifle days), I use nothing else and can't see I ever would (having bought a brick of the stuff).

    Like you I started with air rifles, however distance is a great leveller wherby range magnifies all those little inconsistencies. We would probably zero our air riflles at 20/25m - probably - and be confident enought to then ho ahead and take vermin out to 30-40yds with a bit of holdover.

    Just how 'grouped' (what is the distribution over 50-60mm) are your shots at 100m and does it matter? What range do you actually need to shoot vermin at (eg how do you come across them on your permission is it 30/50/80/100/100yds+?)?

    You may also want to look at trigger, and how you release the shot, and whether you push/pull against the bipod for each shot; this is an area of consistency that many shooters overlook.
    If you could post a couple of pics of your groups that may also indicate a few things about your shooting technique.

    As a previous poster said 1-1.5" may be fine for the ranges you are shooting at.

    Keep at it with finding ammo, I suggest another Annie 1417 user might be able to there with whatever they use; I have the same in .17HMR (the 1517), it's a sweet shooting rifle.

    Let us know how you get on.
    "There comes in the dead of night a hand of cold steel that plucks the German sentries from their posts"
    WSC 1942

  9. #9
    Try getting as low to the ground in a prone position and get something to support the butt of the rifle so it is completely rested and stable.

    If you haven't tried 'SKs' made by lapua then try them. I've been happy for bunnie bashing with winchester superX and eleys for a long time but it was interesting to see the SKs shooting consistently into a ragged hole at 50m (ranged with a rangefinder for Taffs benefit) whereas other subs would be double that.

  10. #10
    mine is same setup 14 annie sak mod winnie subs, mates 14 annie parker hale mod winnie subs side by side no trouble at all, to be honest only prob is in cold weather wax on ammo can get a bit claggy, wipe it over with dry cloth and you good to go,honestly i wouldnt worry about your grouping,it will just peck your head, good luck and good shooting, doug,

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