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Thread: Attn- Muir ....... Paper Patching .358 for use in 9.3mm

  1. #1

    Attn- Muir ....... Paper Patching .358 for use in 9.3mm

    Hi Muir,

    Perhaps you can be of assistance I have a Husqvarna Model 46 bolt action in 9.3x57 Mauser and have tried to paper patch some 0.358" cast bullets with little sucess Now the moulds I have are both Lyman being:-

    35875 which is a flat nosed plain base bullet which is a claimed 200 grains

    35897 which is a gas checked tapered nose bullet of a claimed 232 grains

    Now I cast them of pure lead, perhaps that was the mistake?

    Part of the problem will be that the groove diameter of my rifle is 0.370" although the land diameter appears to be 0.3545". The bullets from the 35897 mould drop at 0.358" in pure lead and weigh 240 grains. However the bullets from the 35875 mould drop at 210 grains weight and 0.362" diameter.

    I just oiled one of each of the bullets and pushed them through the bore from the muzzle which is how I got the land diameter. It would appear that the muzzle end of the barel may be 0.355" as measuring it with a digital caliper gets this reading. These bullets have hardened somewhat as I cast them about 6 years ago now. At the moment none of the casting equipment is set up as I have no room for it at the moment. Later this year I will have space in a shed in which to cast once again.

    This is my first venture into casting and the moulds were brought at an Arms Fair at Bisley Camp and both sets now have handles on them but did not have when I brought them. They do not appear to have been used or if so used very little.

    I am confused at the quite large diffierence in size as dropped from the mould and of course have more of the 240 Grn tapered nose bullet I believe it was with the 210 Gr bullet that I was experimenting but for some reason I didn't keep any notes of what was tried . None of the bullets were sized but I do have two lube sizers. Lyman 450 and a Seaco one that I picked up but don't have the dies for them.

    Any help would be most appreciated.

  2. #2
    I guess the only way I can help is to ask a few questions.

    What were the loads that failed? (powder etc)

    Were bullets seated to the lands? (the patch into the lands?)

    What was the finished diameter of the bullet?

    Sorry it didn't cliick right off but we can get it fixed. Molds are funny: they never Cast the diameter they say they will. The older molds are the worst offenders as it was once thought that sizing had no detrimental effect on accuracy... or it was just considered a necessary evil. I have some old 30 caliber molds that cast .314 inches!

    Cast (and patched) bullets don't like a jump into the leade. Nor do they like having their bases below the shoulder. They also like being as close to the diameter of the throat as possible without pinching the neck in the chamber. It keeps away excess gas cutting.

    Lastly, they don't like pressure. If you exceed the pressure minits of the alloy you will get nasty accuracy. This means that even with patched bullets, you must have an alloy strong enought to take the kick in the rear end. Leading with conventional cast bullets isn't caused by velocity, it's pressure. It can have evil effects on paper patched bullets as well.

    Anyhow, let me know your load. ~Muir

  3. #3
    Ahhh Muir, sorry but I seemt o have mislaid or even lost the notes that iw as working with on this so I now have to start from scratch once again.

    I have to following powders available at the moment:-

    IMR 4198
    Reloader 7
    Reloader 12
    Reloader 15
    Red Dot

    One of them hopefully will be suitable. I split a 9.3x57 case down the neck and tried just seating a 210 Gr bullet int he neck and chambering the cartridge but the bullet did not touch the leade. I will have to use the rod method to measure the maximum COL meanwhile I will work out the patch size to fit snugly into a fired case and see how that chambers.

    Ahhh I do have some cammercial cast has checked .375" bulelts from a daliance with a .375 RNE (9.5x57mm) perhaps a sizing die would reduce them to 0.370"...............Hmmm I will see if I can size the neck of a .375 RNE case down to take a 0.370" bullet and see if it will chamber.

  4. #4
    Well, starting from scratch after a bad load isn't a horrible thing. If you are intent on using a pure lead bullet you're going to have to keep the pressures low. Of that list, 4198 would seem the bulkiest -most suitable. Red Dot works well in some botle neckl cases but it's pretty easy to generate 40 K with a light (12-14 grains) charge in a 30 caliber. Velocity is low.

    THe .370 bullet sounds good. While excessive sizing isn't conducvive to accuracy, this bullet will certainly provide a better shot at accuracy than a short PPtchd bullet. Another option is to take one of those 358 molds and a machinist open it up to a diameter suitable for PPtchig based on your paper thickness. (2 wraps) It would be a relatively simple thing to bore one out and make it longer. The other option of course, is to have a mold made for you to take a .375 gascheck. If you look at Lee Precision's web site, and hunt around the menu, you will find "Custom Services" where they describe making molds. They charge a $100 set up fee (one time) and then the cost of a mold. They take about 3 months to complete and order, unfortunately. I was considering having them take their .338 design and increase it dimensionally to fit the 9.3; specifying a diameter that gives a good tight fit on the nose of the bullet. It's still an option.~Muir

  5. #5
    Hi Muir,

    You comment on the Red Dot is slightly surprising, I take you know of "The Load" and that works quite well in a 303 Martini Muscat with a 205 grain Gas Checked hard cast bullet and that's 16 grains of red Dot.

    As for sizing it would appear that once I check the neck and throat size I can order a simple sizer from Lee. Checking on lyma's site they don't make odd sizes like this for the 450 Lube-sizer .

    The idea of pure lead was for good expansion. I can harden the lead if needed as I have some "Hard" lead that i can melt and add to the mix once I get the lead pot set up. It was hoped that it would be possible with a paper patch to get around 2200fps. I know that Paul Mathews did it with his .375 and also if I recall correctly his .30 cal................. Hmmm I need look out his books again and go back through them to get some ideas.

    I have been considering boring out one of the moulds but first must work out the best diameter to make it to suit this rifle . We have an independant 4 Jaw for the lathe.

  6. #6
    Established Poster
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Tokoroa, South Waikato,NZ
    Hi Gentlemen,
    I've been playing around with a 9.3 x 62 Husqvarna and cast bullets
    I bought a 245gr plain base mould from LBT it can be had cut to take
    .375 gas checks, the other option is Mountain Moulds where you can
    design your own mould I have one for my 44/40 they are very well made
    and turn around time is pretty good I got mine in 30 days,
    Buffalo Arms has custom made sizer dies at $us44.95
    I've been loading with Red Dot 13gr and IMR 4227 17gr with a wool wad
    velocity is only 1200 & 1350fps I have only been shooting at 50M for off hand practice accuracy at 50M from a benchrest is 1" on average, much more fun than shooting with a rimfire, leading is very light have aquired some Red Rooster lube for the next batch of bullets,
    Hope this is of some help

  7. #7
    OK I found two of the originals that I patched some years ago. They are the smaller diameter 240 Gr tapered nose bullets and their patched diameter is 0.367" and the patch covers 1/2" of the bullets body length. However 0.367" is still 0.003" under groove size.

  8. #8
    Ouch! That is too small.

    I know about "the load" and it's OK, but Unigue powder will give less pressure for the velocity. I have found that when approaching hunting velocity, Reddot is a poor choice. Great for target use at low speed.

    I read Mathews book but look to the NRA techinical staff for advice on bottle necked cartridges where they recommend harder metals for speeds approaching/equalling jacketed. ~Muir

  9. #9
    Hmmm I will unwrap one of those and see what paper thickness I used as if I use the same stuff to patch the larger slighter bullets they should measure 0.370" however things are going to slow here as I have some planting to do. We have 900 trees arriving on Wednesday.

    I hope to get out and try the new Bi-Pod this afternoon if I can wangle the time.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Brithunter
    Hmmm I will unwrap one of those and see what paper thickness I used as if I use the same stuff to patch the larger slighter bullets they should measure 0.370" however things are going to slow here as I have some planting to do. We have 900 trees arriving on Wednesday.

    I hope to get out and try the new Bi-Pod this afternoon if I can wangle the time.
    It's a damned pity when work cuts into valuable shooting time, isn't it??~Muir

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