375 H+H for the woods

Mark H is doing something he wants to do and it`s legal.
Someone said Mark downloaded it to make it deer legal, thats total crap as THERE IS NO LEGAL MAXIMUM CALIBRE FOR DEER IN THE UK !!!
I think Mark downloaded it because he can and because he wanted to and he`s into his reloading/ballistics etc and good luck to him.
Wayne has a 375 legal in UK,and he reloads and loves his reloading/ballistics etc etc
and I got a 458 deer/pig legal in UK with soft point ammunition,I not into reloading so I used Factory 520 gr soft points.
Good luck to them all for not being advised (bullied) into not having something they want.
I`m sure theres plenty of people who will advise or throw in their two pennies worth,but if they were offered to have a large calibre on open ticket with soft points in UK they would change their tune and jump at the chance.
And... 375 is definatly not an oddball calibre, nor is 458 for that matter.
 
Why do it the easy way if a difficult solution is available ????

In Belgium the law is easier in the use of firearms for game . There is a minimum for roe deer and a minimum for red deer and boar . That's all .

What advantage does a 375 has over more common calibers for UK and European use ? In my idea none .
Most 375 rifles are much to heavy to be convenient to use .
The same can be said about a rifle with bipod and moderator .
Why start downloading ammo if " normal " ammo is available .
A factory 308/30-06/8x57JS is all you ever need for woodland use .
There is factory ammo available for these calibres with 200/220 grain bullets .
If you want to follow up wounded game , you can use any of these calibres/rifles with open sights and a good heavy bullet .
These calibres and the 9.3x62 are the most used calibres by tracking dog handlers in Germany .
For following up wounded game a good double trigger shotgun with slugs is also hard to beat . Light , fast , pointable , ......

There is no reason to reinvent things wich already exist .
 
The reason I think that Marks post is worthy of debate is because he has deliberately down loaded the cartridge to be just deer legal, by his own admission the drop on this cartridge when so loaded is horrendous. I generally would have concerns of how a bullet would perform (although not in this specific case), expansion of a bullet is directly related to the velocity it is driven, at what point is the velocity so low that the bullet effectively becomes a non-expanding bullet? Remember “English law says that a bullet must expand in a predictable manner.” If you are going to make your dangerous game rifle perform like a 243 does it not make far more sense to just use a 243?

The bullet drop in this case is pretty much immaterial. Mark would compensate for it just as we compensate fro shots at longer ranges. His parameters (100yds or less) are self imposed and familiarity with the weapon will result in comparable hit probabilities to any other rifle.


Now in Mark case you might argue what he has done is expectable, and as I said to a degree I was playing devils advocate, so there is a chance I will agree as I have not made my own mind up 100% yet. This then leads to if this is OK when is it not, if ever? Is it OK the use a 500gn bullet doing 1300fps that is still deer legal?

Thar: the first bit of this para makes no sense, can you expand a little please?

The second part regarding the 500gr bullet: Yes it is legal. If someone wishes to do so then that is ok within the wording of the relevant legislation. The deer will be no more or less dead than it would have been when that particular round was introduced many moons ago
.

I see some people berate the law surrounding firearms and deer, do you wish to turn back the clock and be able to use whatever you or just importantly other s like?

The two parts of this question are unrelated. I don't think anyone would argue that the firearms laws in this country are an intractable mares nest.
However the original deer act legislated specifically on the type of weapon that could be used i.e. a rifle. This was the major change in the legislation. I don't think anyone would argue over the use of the type of weapon, however it has never been sensibly revisited and as far as I'm aware even the current legislation has no scientific basis
.

Of course for those living north of the boarder it is immaterial as we have a minimum velocity limit, in general, is this a bad thing?

Maybe, maybe not. The important question here is whether a deer changes it's physical make up as soon as it crosses the border. If it doesn't then we have a nonsensical situation. Firearms law should be unified across the uk and ireland.[/i]
 
When we reload don't we all tailor the load regardless of calibre to our own individual needs and prevailing legislation?
In this case I see it as Mark just tailoring the load for his .375H&H so that he can get more use out of that rifle. I haven't done the maths yet but the load probably equates to the muzzle energy of a medium calibre deer rifle but due to the heavy bullet and rainbow trajectory not very efficient or practical beyond 100yds perhaps.
Almost certainly there will insufficient velocity to properly expand the bullet but instead he is relying upon the larger initial diameter to carry out the job, such as a heavy cast bullet would do in those areas where such things are permitted.
Life would be pretty boring if we were restricted to only a few "select deer calibres".

Hales Smut, 9.3x62 isn't that much different to .375H&H so why do you advocate the one and not the other? I have both 8x57irs and 9.3x74r and agree that both are excellant deer calibres unfortunately neither is very common in the U.K.
I've been reading a bit about swaged copper plated 9.3mm bullets being used in South Africa for meat hunting, certain similarities come to mind!
 
I've got nothing against a 375 . I do like heavier bullets .
For me it's the practical side of the game .

Let's compare a CZ 550 Magnum in 375 with a Meaopta 7x50 against a Tikka T3 lite or Browning A Bolt in 30-06 with the same scope.
A heavy rifle is just not as comfortable to use . When you walk around , to get in an out of a vehicle , to turn around in a narrow high seat , etc ...

There are a few good 220 grain factory loads available . Remington , Sako , Winchester , .......
 
I will have to differ with you on this one Hales, as many heavier calibre rifles actually balance better than the likes of a T3. I am thinking of my own 9.3x74 double here. It sits between the hands beautifully and just naturally points at the target. Many of these rifles are built this way with relatively short barrels for just such instinctive shooting.

I would agree that a rifle made with a longer barrel in order to gain the most ballistically may not be so sweet to heft, but it's all down to the individual build of the rifle. For example the feel of many rifles is spoilt by the addition of a moderator, but some are actually improved.
A CZ550 Magnum has quite a long barrel. I have a Meopta 7x50 on my Tikka 595 so can I imagine what the all-up weight would be, so I take your point on that one.

From your mention of the various ammunition manufacturers am I to assume that you don't reload?
 
Like you thought , I am not a reloader . I don't shoot enough to make it of any intrest to me financialy .
Today , if you don't shoot much , there is such a wide range of possible calibres and loads available that there is no need for reloading .
Frequently you see reloaders which want to turn a 270 into a 7 mm rem Mag ( just as an example ) . You ask yourself why they didn't buy the 7 mm straight away .

I fully agree that balance is just as important as weight . In Belgium we have lot's of small gunmakers which make double rifles and indeed they can be very well balanced while not being very light .

I used the CZ as an example because it's the most affordable true magnum sized rifle and widely used all over Africa .

A moderated rifle is a dream to shoot , but it doesn't help the rifle in being practical . Both in lenght and weight .

Don't get me wrong here . I do like heavier calibres and bullets . My question is why going through all those trouble , when you get a more practical tool straight out of the box .
 
I agree it's not the most practical rifle to use, but many of us get a certain pleasure out of ownership of certain rifles, I imagine that this is the case with the .375H & H. It's simply nice to use it then and it's really very little trouble to develop a suitable load if you already reload.

It's also nice not to be restricted by petty rules and laws, we have more than enough of them already. I would think he uses it simply because he can, and because he gets enjoyment out of using it.
Like some one said already there isn't an upper limit on power although some police forces wish there was.
 
Ok Guys, I’ve changed my mind and returned to this thread.

Firstly about the rifles. Both rifles are heavy but 10-11 lbs. in weight however they have been custom fitted and balanced. This makes them quick rifles to shoot with, similar to a well balance shotgun. The 458 has a short barrel to facilitate this. My 308 Sauer 202 + moderator is not a well-balanced rifle and very long.
In terms of recoil a 100gn 243 cal produces just a fraction more recoil than the downloaded 225gn 375.
The 375 also shoots sub minute of angle.
If I needed a long range shot I can add 8 click up to the scope and shoot a monolithic 155gn copper bullet at 3000 ft/s with the same accuracy but that’s another story.

Secondly this rifle cartridge combination is only for use in a forest/wood situation maximum distance 100m. In fact the horrendous drop on the bullet has certain safety advantages the bullet will have grounded on a standard pass through shot at about 100m.

I think a lesson in terminal ballistic may help with explaining why I would bother to use a downloaded big bore to shoot deer with.

Lets make an assumption that we are shooting standard soft point ammunition. The faster the bullet is going when it hits a deer the more rapidly the bullet expands. This creates the lead mushroom and increases the bullet diameter. The increase in diameter reduces the sectional density and the more resistance the tissue offers the bullet slowing it down.
In the wet pack tests the slower bullets penetrated better than the faster ( the only variable is velocity) as they expanded more slowly.

commercial_detail.jpg


So we can conclude that to get good penetration we don’t need to push our bullets at huge velocities to achieve good penetration. Impact velocity of 1500-1900 ft/s is good.

Lets look at wound channels

243 – the only reliable bullet for fallow here is the 100gn

243_caliber_plot.jpg


458 - moderate velocity give reliable penetration

458_caliber_plot.jpg


Finally the question of expansion

458-bullets2.jpg


Legend - (L-R) Some tested .458 caliber bullet designs: (1, 2) 300 gr Barnes X-Bullet (unfired and recovered from 1930 fps), (3 - 5) 350 gr Hornady Interlock FN (unfired and recovered from 1400 and 1900 fps), (6, 7) 350 gr Speer Hot-Cor (unfired and recovered from 1930 fps)

Yes 375 and 458 bullets expand @ velocities between 1900-1500 ft/s.

For more information read this site where I stole the images from:

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

I do have plenty of my own photo of terminal ballistic effects on wet back and deer but hopefully this should suffice.

PS I don’t own a 243 so can’t shoot it from my highseats but I do have a 7x64 Brenneke, 308 Win, 375 H+H and a 458 Lott. On open ground I use the 7x64 at present.
 
Mark, that has to be one of the most well informed posts I have ever seen. Well done that man, you are to be congratulated on your research :!:

I quoted the 45-70 because I have a friend who uses it. It fires a big soft nosed projectile in a very loopy trajectory but the terminal ballistics are astounding, and with very little meat damage. I presume that you are finding the same?

The small and fast brigade often forget that velocity is not the only answer, in fact our forebearers found that for close quarter dangerous game, big and slow is the most effective method of dispatch. The late Jim Corbett used a .275 Westly Richards for some of his maneater shooting from machans (highseats), but when he had to go into thick bush after leopards and tigers he used a .500 nitro express.

For information; There is no law which states which large calibres you can use for deer stalking, just the "Home Office Guidelines". In these "guidelines" the .375 HH is the only big game calibre which meets all their requirements. Which is a farce :rolleyes:

Once again, Well done Mark.

Atb, ft
 
flytie said:
For information; There is no law which states which large calibres you can use for deer stalking, just the "Home Office Guidelines". In these "guidelines" the .375 HH is the only big game calibre which meets all their requirements. Which is a farce :rolleyes:

To be fair, the HO Guidance does not say what is or is not permitted to be used for a given purpose, but is a guide to the police as to what constitutes 'good reason to possess' a particular calibre.

Once the 'good reason' is demonstrated, the Police should not really be restricting the FAC-holder from using it for any lawful purpose!
 
B
Dalua said:
flytie said:
For information; There is no law which states which large calibres you can use for deer stalking, just the "Home Office Guidelines". In these "guidelines" the .375 HH is the only big game calibre which meets all their requirements. Which is a farce :rolleyes:

To be fair, the HO Guidance does not say what is or is not permitted to be used for a given purpose, but is a guide to the police as to what constitutes 'good reason to possess' a particular calibre.
quote]

Dalua, I thought I just said that? ;)

There are however published tables that the police/flo's use, some of which are published in the back of my DSC1 book, under the headings "some commonly used calibres and bullet weights". There are columns for calibre, bullet weight, muzzle velocity, muzzle energy and status. The status column is graded either, white for "Legal for all deer species", grey for "Ballistic shortfall", dark grey for "Legal for roe only" and black for "Illegal for all deer". .375 HH is the only commonly used big game calibre to meet all the legal requirements published in the tables used by the police. This does not mean that I believe that a .700 NE incapable of humanely killing any species of deer, as it patently is :!:

ft
 
Well done that man.
Informative and well written post, and not assumptions,bull**** or thoughts.
Straight up facts from a man who knows what he`s talking about from EXPERIENCE.
Will some more armchair ballistics experts replying to this?
 
The 375 H&H is one of great calibres of the world to me. In Africa providing you use the right weight bullets it is capable of taking all species of big game from a Duiker to an Elephant.

Having owned this calibre for a number of years and used it in Africa on Elephant, Buff, and many species of plains game and in Finland on Moose I persoanally cannot see any problem with using it on certain species of deer in this country.

However I personally have never used it on deer in the UK as I have other slightly more suitable calibres/rifles. My 375 is also fitted with a 1.5x6 Burris signature scope and is not really fitted and kitted for stalking in the UK. But on my ticket I can use it for all species of deer, boar and fox. Not that I would intentionally go out to use it on Fox, and have never shot one with it either.

So yes I see no problem with using a 375 in the UK on Red deer or say Sika and Wild Boar. However if a client turned up with one to take Muntjac or CWD I would probably laugh my socks off. Toting one around and the noise when you let one off in a forest or on the open hill :eek: well I would say its better used in Africa or on species like Moose as a rule.

I have had many American clients bring 300 win mags as well, and that is another really noisy calibre, which is rather over gunned for the UK.

ATB

Sikamalc
 
Hi Malc

I did make the mistake once of shooting a fully stoked 375 in a forestry block once. My right ear was ringing for a couple of days - I do not advise this. Save the big loads for Africa.
Knocking back from 70gn of powder to 40gn makes it about the same as an unmoderated 243 in terms of noise. This wont upset the local gamekeepers in th next county.

Regards

Mark
 
Well! I returned from my travels to find this thread well wrung out. Lots of good comments that I enjoyed reading.

It is an observation of mine that a couple of weeks back there was a long thread about the evils of "blootering" (still love that word...) deer, yet, in this thread, there is controvesy about a fellow who has engineered a load that will avoid just that. It's a bit fickle if you ask me.

As was observed, "dead is dead". Caliber and load choice, within the confines of the law, should be dictated by the skill and experience of the shooter. Who is anyone to question the shooter's judgement until they witness the results? I shoot deer out to 75 yards with a 158 grain cast bullet from a .357 magnum revolver. The starting velocity is about 1500 fps. With that said I can only imagine how foolish some of you must think I am to tackle a 150 pound deer with such a puny load. :oops: ~Muir
 
I'm surprised by the comments about the .375H&H being harsh. I found that mine was nicer to shoot than my mates Tikka .270, and that was side by side on the same target within a minute of eachother! If it wasn't such a struggle to get it for use here I'd still have it, I really did like the gun. It's a good Deer round. The one I shot died cleanly enough. Slowing the bullet down will just reduce the meat damage a bit, there's no harm in that.

If you look a the speed of a heavy .45-70 load you'll find that isn't going all that quickly either. It really is a case of each to his own, the round will certainly be no less humane than any other common stalking round. I don't see why the velocity is important? Perhaps it's something to do with the trajectory of slow rounds making range estimation more critical? At under 100 yards it doesn't really matter!
 
njc110381 said:
If you look a the speed of a heavy .45-70 load you'll find that isn't going all that quickly either. It really is a case of each to his own, the round will certainly be no less humane than any other common stalking round. I don't see why the velocity is important? Perhaps it's something to do with the trajectory of slow rounds making range estimation more critical? At under 100 yards it doesn't really matter!

Njc, that was the reason i quoted the 45-70, very loopy at long ranges but at 100yds/ish it is deadly. The velocity thing is from the "small and fast" facists who forget how effective big slow bullets have been on dangerous game for years. I believe that when quoting energy delivered at point of impact these big rounds are very impressive, they certainly are in practise.

How goes the Weatherby hunt?

Regards, ft
 
flytie said:
njc110381 said:
How goes the Weatherby hunt?

Regards, ft

Oh you know me, I'm not even sure I'm into it at the moment. For what I really want it for it's not ideal and I may even try to lob it in for a .338 Win Mag or .45-70 yet. I'm in talks with my FEO but they're just so stuck on the guidelines that they're being hard work.

They said I couldn't have a .338 even for zeroing here. I just e-mailed them to say that the .300 Weatherby has the same muzzle energy as the .338 Win but the problem is that it breaks the velocity limits for the ranges I shoot! The .338 would be better for me. I think they're relating the .338 win with a .338 Lap, so I've done my best to educate them.

He's going to hate me. It took me nearly 2 hours to type the e-mail!
 
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