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Thread: Badger cull - what was the definition of "humane"

  1. #1

    Question Badger cull - what was the definition of "humane"

    Folks,

    As serious question to anyone who actually knows and I ask because this seems to be the axe that the Badger Trust are grinding on.

    What was the definition of "humane" used by the observers and the resultant criticism ?

    Cheers & ATVB

    Philip
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes ?

  2. #2
    if the animal shows signs of suffering they would say in was not humane, so in their view if it isn't stone dead on the spot it wasn't humane which is rubbish.

  3. #3
    Didn't reports come out that it took some badgers up to 5 mins to die. My question is, what methods were being used to dispatch them? Bow and arrow? Catapult? Baseball bat? Also, who said it took them 5 mins, what evidence was this based on? I feel this is where the claim of inhumane comes from.



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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Wills View Post
    Didn't reports come out that it took some badgers up to 5 mins to die. My question is, what methods were being used to dispatch them? Bow and arrow? Catapult? Baseball bat? Also, who said it took them 5 mins, what evidence was this based on? I feel this is where the claim of inhumane comes from.
    Very good point-did the observer stand with a stop watch for 5 mins whilst the animal expire and no one thought of a follow up shot? Seems odd?

  5. #5
    This is really my point.

    Surely it was not a case of take shot and run up to the badger ? So how was this data actually derived ? I am assuming a large degree of supposition !

    Indeed, "Best Practice" is to leave a shot deer alone for around 15 minutes after the shot unless a follow up is needed, so was Badger culling "Best Practice" totally different ?

    Cheers + ATVB

    Philip

    PS I only ask after Farming Today this morning and the Badger Trust making mileage out of the independent report on the humaneness failure (?) and the fact that the next cull will not have the same scrutiny.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes ?

  6. #6
    THey were not expecting all shot badgers to died instantaneously, the definition used was more than 5% badgers taking more than 5 minutes to die would due regarded as inhumane
    There was a 95% confidence that more than 5% DID take more than 5minutes to die.

    The investigation is nothing if not thorough and looks almost every aspect that might have affected the outcome. Some assessments were made from observations by observers, or comments from the contractors themselves plus post mortem evidence.

  7. #7
    Thanks for that.

    As I said it was a genuine "out of interest" question and not asked out of desire to cause conflict.

    Cheers + ATVB

    Philip
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes ?

  8. #8
    A lot depends on how the person defines 'death'. Is it when it stops breathing, its heart stops, it bleeds out, eye pupil dilated, it does not react to stimulation of the corner of the eye?
    During the Randomised Badger Culling Trial, 'death' was defined as, no rhythmic breathing, no heart beat, dilated pupil and no reaction to a touch in the corner of the eye. If all of these were satisfied the badger was officially dead and could be heart blood sampled and bagged.
    For this current work 'death' is defined as correct shot placement, no rhythmic breathing, no eye movement, pupil dilated and no muscle spasms, the guide says muscle spasms can last for up to 5 mins. Final death check cannot be made before 3 mins has passed.
    We all know that a heart beat can go on for some considerable time after the animal is down and can depend upon the rate of bleed-out.
    I believe that some badger groups that are not signed up to the cull fully, that includes some of those intimately involved who are selectively using these seemingly long times to 'death' to portray inhumaness.
    For this cull the shot was taken and the animal immediately inspected unless a follow up shot was required. The time was taken from the shot to 'death'. The only shot allowed to be used was heart/lung and judgement of this shot is not easy on a badger and if the front leg happens to be rearwards then a thick lump of meat and bone is directly over the heart/lung area. Bullet types to be used were not specified just a minimum .22 C/F, 50g and 1000ft lb. I believe some of the lighter varmint types under certain circumstances may not have been adequate to punch through to the heart lung area to successfully damage vital organs.
    Only a small percentage of carcasses were subject to post mortem.
    Make your own conclusions.
    Last edited by billh; 01-05-2014 at 08:56.

  9. #9
    Also, I believe a number of 'inconclusive' shots ie misses, were lumped in the same category which inflated the percentage of >5min deaths.

  10. #10
    The report from the Independent Expert Panel is here - fairly interesting reading and not too long as these things go.

    Having read it (albeit briefly) I think Crosshair 243 has a point!

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