How much can I achieve with my Patterdale?

J111

Well-Known Member
Hi all,

Firstly, I'd like to say I've never used a dog for hunting before so have probably done everything wrong to this point, and don't really know how a deer dog should be expected to perform.

I've got a great little patterdale terrier who's just over a year that I've had since a pup. He's an absolutely great pet and companion but am wondering if it's too late to train him up to be any use for stalking as I really like taking the little feller out with me. Makes a nice hot water bottle if nothing else..! I've sort of indulged his natural desire for chasing stuff by encouraging him to kill rats, pull rabbits out of thickets and take him with me when squirrel shooting with the airrifle as he's good for following up the odd wounded one. I also let him tear into a fox last weekend that I had shot as I thought he could be useful for following up injured ones if that ever happens. However, he's got a bad habit of going after pheasants and actually recently has chased sheep and cows so he's mostly on the lead at the moment. Apparently this morning out with the mrs he spotted a fox and f*cked off for ten minutes so he's probably got a taste from them after the weekend - not good. Generally if I take him out stalking with me on foot, he'll be constantly sniffing the ground and pulling at the lead and will pine and pull if he spots something. I have been working hard on walking to heel over the last two weeks and he can do it perfectly if there's cheese in my hand and no distractions! I've also done quite a lot of training with him for blood tracking and he's pretty good at it I think - I can lay a trail through woodland over about 2-300m with a couple of 90 degree turns in it and he will follow it on a long lead a couple of hours after it was laid, so that is definitely a use I have for him, although if I let him off the lead in woods and left to his own devices he'll chase everything out of the wood and as he's got a damn good nose he'll find everything and clear the whole wood pretty quick. He goes deaf when he's on the heels of something. He sort of points to an extent and has spotted stuff with his nose like a squirrel that was up wind of us that I hadn't seen until he started sniffing in it's direction.

So my question is bearing in mind the above what can I get expect him to achieve with the right training? Can I get him to:

1. walk calmly to heel and not try and chase stuff until I let him. And not pine and pull at the lead when he becomes aware of a deer (or bloody squirrel)
2. Sit at the bottom of a high seat (can tie him up) but reckon he'd be pulling and pining if something came close.
3. Stop chasing livestock.

Cheers, any advice appreciated.
 
So my question is bearing in mind the above what can I get expect him to achieve with the right training? Can I get him to:

1. walk calmly to heel and not try and chase stuff until I let him. And not pine and pull at the lead when he becomes aware of a deer (or bloody squirrel)
2. Sit at the bottom of a high seat (can tie him up) but reckon he'd be pulling and pining if something came close.
3. Stop chasing livestock.

Probably not, it's a Patterdale. I am a Patterdale owner and although she's a great dog she spends most of her time on the flexi-lead. She comes back like a star until a rabbit runs and then red-mist descends and all training goes out the window.

I can see the dog been great for possibly following up wounded deer etc, but not really for what you want.

Someone will come and tell me their dog drives the car and makes tea, I don't doubt.
 
I have a patterdale, she's broken to livestock as to your other requests, forget it. I have no doubt they will find a lost deer, but taking them stalking isn't in their job description
 
I have always a Patterdale with me when I stalk,this takes a lot of practice asi stalk full time it is easier for me
to train them they walk to heal most of the time and will wait for the shot and they will find deer just the same as my labs ,it is hard work but worth it
 
J111. One error/vice that you haven't mentioned is going to ground. Keep him away from holes that are large enough for him to get down, otherwise a four hour stalking session can turn into an overnight vigil. Best of luck.
 
J111. One error/vice that you haven't mentioned is going to ground. Keep him away from holes that are large enough for him to get down, otherwise a four hour stalking session can turn into an overnight vigil. Best of luck.
I forgot to say that especially if the owners have stripes,
 
It really does depend note individual dog.

My first deer dog was a patterdale, and I still have and use him but I have since got a bigger dog.

You need to be firm, very firm and consistent. They are absolutely capable of following a blood trail indeed mine is very good at it their prey drive is immense so if you can steer that in the right direction you are on to a winner.

Mine will stalk at heel, as a younger dog he did run in on 2 or 3 occasions. Amazing how they can get to a deer faster than a bullet. That was my fault. I trusted him too soon. A very thorough chat was had after about why he shouldn't have done it and I think he understood.

His is sit and stay is amazing, very steady like that.

Often I think he switches his hearing off when it comes to recall but a whistle has helped with that.

A lot of people told me about the going to ground stuff but in my experience it's ********. He has never gone to ground, he has never known any better so why would he? That said I don't take any chances. Just in case I'm wrong.

In short, give it a go. Think very hard about how, and what you do in training try not to make any mistakes! Remember that he will want to push his luck at any opportunity so be firm, patient and consistent. Use a lead definitely use a lead and a Long line for tracking (although I hate this method) but you need to have some control over them.

Oh yeah. When he does find his first deer... Or his second or any deer be very careful what you do with your hands around him.
 
Thanks for your ideas guys. I think I'll keep persevering. Maybe he'll calm down in a year or so. He's got a retained bollock so have been told we ought to get him neutered at some point which may help?
 
J111, firstly, well done for trying to utilise the dog you have got. Terriers can make themselves useful but as Jubnut said: you need to be very firm and consistent.
I think at this stage your priority ought to be stopping him from chasing stock. I would take him out on the flexi lead and try to get him used to being around cattle, sheep and chickens.....and cats too, if you don't want a PR disaster with the farmers children. Do not trust him off lead until you are 100% confident that he won't chase stock. It is very easy to get a terrier to chase stuff but very difficult to stop him.

Patterdales tend to be quite hard so if you're following up wounded beasts with him off the lead, be aware that he may not have enough sense to stand back and bay. Deer have antlers/tusks/hooves and your dog might take quite a hammering if he is inexperienced. I would certainly keep him on a long lead for now.

I find it easier to stalk without my dog and then go and get him if he's needed, although he will walk to heel and behave well when nobody is looking!
What with carrying rifle, binos, roesack, sticks etc I already feel like a one man band, so tripping up on a terrier and getting tangled up in a dog lead is the last thing I need.

If he isn't going to be used for serious earth work, do not ever allow him to go to ground, ever. Make sure he understands his boundaries.

Good luck! hope it all goes well for you
 
Hi all,

Firstly, I'd like to say I've never used a dog for hunting before so have probably done everything wrong to this point, and don't really know how a deer dog should be expected to perform.

I've got a great little patterdale terrier who's just over a year that I've had since a pup. He's an absolutely great pet and companion but am wondering if it's too late to train him up to be any use for stalking as I really like taking the little feller out with me. Makes a nice hot water bottle if nothing else..! I've sort of indulged his natural desire for chasing stuff by encouraging him to kill rats, pull rabbits out of thickets and take him with me when squirrel shooting with the airrifle as he's good for following up the odd wounded one. I also let him tear into a fox last weekend that I had shot as I thought he could be useful for following up injured ones if that ever happens. However, he's got a bad habit of going after pheasants and actually recently has chased sheep and cows so he's mostly on the lead at the moment. Apparently this morning out with the mrs he spotted a fox and f*cked off for ten minutes so he's probably got a taste from them after the weekend - not good. Generally if I take him out stalking with me on foot, he'll be constantly sniffing the ground and pulling at the lead and will pine and pull if he spots something. I have been working hard on walking to heel over the last two weeks and he can do it perfectly if there's cheese in my hand and no distractions! I've also done quite a lot of training with him for blood tracking and he's pretty good at it I think - I can lay a trail through woodland over about 2-300m with a couple of 90 degree turns in it and he will follow it on a long lead a couple of hours after it was laid, so that is definitely a use I have for him, although if I let him off the lead in woods and left to his own devices he'll chase everything out of the wood and as he's got a damn good nose he'll find everything and clear the whole wood pretty quick. He goes deaf when he's on the heels of something. He sort of points to an extent and has spotted stuff with his nose like a squirrel that was up wind of us that I hadn't seen until he started sniffing in it's direction.

So my question is bearing in mind the above what can I get expect him to achieve with the right training? Can I get him to:

1. walk calmly to heel and not try and chase stuff until I let him. And not pine and pull at the lead when he becomes aware of a deer (or bloody squirrel)
2. Sit at the bottom of a high seat (can tie him up) but reckon he'd be pulling and pining if something came close.
3. Stop chasing livestock.

Cheers, any advice appreciated.
I have a male ****terdale. I think the first thing worth mentioning is what you are experiencing with patter dale ownership is pretty normal and not worth getting stressed about. Stress and dogs do not mix, especially highly strung dogs.

It sounds very much like you have given the dog a huge amount of scope at a young age. We've all been there, usually because we want to get the dog going and we want the assurance that the dog is capable before we embark on competency - the training part. Usually this leaves you training out problems you've already put in. Your three goals ARE achievable, despite what a lot of terrier owners might say. You will just have to put in more work in some areas (steadiness) than say a lab owner might. But your terrier will come equipped with a lot of field craft and drive that a lab would lack to the same degree. The first thing I would recommend is withdrawing all uncontrolled stimulus from his life. Keep him on the lead do not let him form an association with prey that does not involve you. This is not an instant fix, but when the dog is older you will find him far steadier and the difference between a dog which charges through woodland bumping rabbit after pheasant and disappearing into the next post code when the deer you were there for gets out of his seat.

The first thing you should understand about any dog (terriers in particular) is prey drive. Prey drive will dictate your dogs life and most decisions he makes. what is important at a young age is to understand that dogs will always specialise to a specific prey. So knowing what you want the dog to do the most is a must from a young age. Switching between different types of work can be difficult, not impossible, but difficult. You're also less likely to have an 'obsessive' dog. Dogs specialise in the prey which is easiest for them to obtain. Think lurchers have speed on their side so little furies are easier for them than retrieving ducks from water. A big thick coated lab who has built a relationship with the gun finds it easy to retrieve from water but would have a lower strike rate on rabbits alone. It doesn't mean there can't be cross over but I am sure you understand the principle. It stems from nature (using your attributes to expend as little energy as possible to get the most food). Because deer are such large mammals- ie a lot of food. All breeds of dog will be willing to expend substantial energy on hunting one and therefore to us display a larger prey drive towards them - think Fenton scenario pet charging deer with no encouragement.

With deer dogs this can make our lives very easy (or difficult for a lot of dog owners where chasing deer is either dangerous or undesirable). You might want to read up on tracking practice and get yourself a good harness and lead. you don't want the dog tracking scent off into the distance as well as bumping deer it could be dangerous for him. you also want a connection with the lead so you can read the dog and therefore the scent. you will begin to learn the difference between a cold scent a hot scent a gap a turn and different scent conditions. If your dog does need to bay or bring down a moving deer you can release him once you are close and can assess the situation, importantly with a small dog the size of the deer.

If you want to focus on steadiness then you need a consistent approach. make him wait for everything HE WANTS, his tea, getting in the motor, going through the gate etc etc. Make him wait, use a lead, he gets to do what he wants as a reward for steadiness. This can transfer into your tracking training and by how you introduce him to work. you can also use this same approach to unsteady behaviour to train out 'undesirables' once we have him steadied up a bit we can take him towards livestock on a lead under control and distract him with one of the things we have trained and reinforced him to be engaged with i.e his favourite toy covered in scent. without the risk of him pelting off after some woolies. once we have secured this focus on the job in hand we can start to trust him more around livestock and gradually progress giving him more scope (longer line, closer to stock) until we are confident with his behaviour. But first the behaviour needs to be stopped in its tracks, USE THE LEAD, it doesn't make you look like a bad dog trainer its a useful tool and important for a young dog. Ultimately you need to be responsible and if you **** off landowners by chasing stock your stalking and shooting permissions will very quickly dry up.

Finally the pining is a trait of the breed. It isn't impossible to get him to stop, this is achieved by working on steadiness in very small increments, keeping him focused on the instruction. you will find it harder with the breed as vocalisation is a trait bred towards, you will also find it a useful trait at times trust me!

A long response I know but I hope you find it helpful. If you can focus on one thing it should be reduce his exposure. This will also help him become obsessive about the traits you want when you slowly encourage them and control his exposure to them.
 
I have a male ****terdale. I think the first thing worth mentioning is what you are experiencing with patter dale ownership is pretty normal and not worth getting stressed about. Stress and dogs do not mix, especially highly strung dogs.

It sounds very much like you have given the dog a huge amount of scope at a young age. We've all been there, usually because we want to get the dog going and we want the assurance that the dog is capable before we embark on competency - the training part. Usually this leaves you training out problems you've already put in. Your three goals ARE achievable, despite what a lot of terrier owners might say. You will just have to put in more work in some areas (steadiness) than say a lab owner might. But your terrier will come equipped with a lot of field craft and drive that a lab would lack to the same degree. The first thing I would recommend is withdrawing all uncontrolled stimulus from his life. Keep him on the lead do not let him form an association with prey that does not involve you. This is not an instant fix, but when the dog is older you will find him far steadier and the difference between a dog which charges through woodland bumping rabbit after pheasant and disappearing into the next post code when the deer you were there for gets out of his seat.

The first thing you should understand about any dog (terriers in particular) is prey drive. Prey drive will dictate your dogs life and most decisions he makes. what is important at a young age is to understand that dogs will always specialise to a specific prey. So knowing what you want the dog to do the most is a must from a young age. Switching between different types of work can be difficult, not impossible, but difficult. You're also less likely to have an 'obsessive' dog. Dogs specialise in the prey which is easiest for them to obtain. Think lurchers have speed on their side so little furies are easier for them than retrieving ducks from water. A big thick coated lab who has built a relationship with the gun finds it easy to retrieve from water but would have a lower strike rate on rabbits alone. It doesn't mean there can't be cross over but I am sure you understand the principle. It stems from nature (using your attributes to expend as little energy as possible to get the most food). Because deer are such large mammals- ie a lot of food. All breeds of dog will be willing to expend substantial energy on hunting one and therefore to us display a larger prey drive towards them - think Fenton scenario pet charging deer with no encouragement.

With deer dogs this can make our lives very easy (or difficult for a lot of dog owners where chasing deer is either dangerous or undesirable). You might want to read up on tracking practice and get yourself a good harness and lead. you don't want the dog tracking scent off into the distance as well as bumping deer it could be dangerous for him. you also want a connection with the lead so you can read the dog and therefore the scent. you will begin to learn the difference between a cold scent a hot scent a gap a turn and different scent conditions. If your dog does need to bay or bring down a moving deer you can release him once you are close and can assess the situation, importantly with a small dog the size of the deer.

If you want to focus on steadiness then you need a consistent approach. make him wait for everything HE WANTS, his tea, getting in the motor, going through the gate etc etc. Make him wait, use a lead, he gets to do what he wants as a reward for steadiness. This can transfer into your tracking training and by how you introduce him to work. you can also use this same approach to unsteady behaviour to train out 'undesirables' once we have him steadied up a bit we can take him towards livestock on a lead under control and distract him with one of the things we have trained and reinforced him to be engaged with i.e his favourite toy covered in scent. without the risk of him pelting off after some woolies. once we have secured this focus on the job in hand we can start to trust him more around livestock and gradually progress giving him more scope (longer line, closer to stock) until we are confident with his behaviour. But first the behaviour needs to be stopped in its tracks, USE THE LEAD, it doesn't make you look like a bad dog trainer its a useful tool and important for a young dog. Ultimately you need to be responsible and if you **** off landowners by chasing stock your stalking and shooting permissions will very quickly dry up.

Finally the pining is a trait of the breed. It isn't impossible to get him to stop, this is achieved by working on steadiness in very small increments, keeping him focused on the instruction. you will find it harder with the breed as vocalisation is a trait bred towards, you will also find it a useful trait at times trust me!

A long response I know but I hope you find it helpful. If you can focus on one thing it should be reduce his exposure. This will also help him become obsessive about the traits you want when you slowly encourage them and control his exposure to them.
Also might I add, the benefit of using a smaller dog to track is that you don't need to tie them below the seat! enjoy their company whilst you can and train them to be a good companion in the seat!
 
I've had terriers of several different breeds over the years (never a straight Patterdale though) and I would agree that most of them can be trained but it isn't easy. Labs and springers take a lot of time to train and covsistency is a must, but terriers are far more work to train than a gundog.
Their intense prey drive and resistance to pain make them what they are, they are very individualistic dogs and once prey is on the menu controlling them can be extremely difficult! Good luck!
 
I used to stalk with a stalker who had a patterdale that went everywhere with him. It went on a lead when crawling in, but other than that he ran free, but kept close and would come to a call.
 
My bitch is a proper handful - that said had her stalking on a lead doesn’t pull, winds deer and would find a shot one and finish it if needed (not red I imagine ha)
although she pulls like a train with my other dogs and if any dog has the audacity to be in eye sight she is very sensible stalking with just me , stepping over branches clear fell and not whining
is she the ideal stalking dog -no, would she help and track a runner last light or give you someone to have the craic with on way home - most definitely
,
 
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