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Thread: Antique Guns

  1. #1

    Antique Guns

    You would think that we have enough criminals in this country without the Government making some more, but that is precisely what they are about to do.

    Under the new Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 (which comes into force on 14th July) it will now be an offence for anyone who is prohibited from owning a firearm under Section 21 of the 1968 Act, to be in possession of an 'antique' gun classified under Section 58 of the act (obsolete calibre or pre 1939 muzzle loading gun).

    To clarify, S21 of the 1968 Act prohibits persons who have been sentenced to prison etc for 3 years or more, from ever being in possession of a gun (even so far as picking one up). Those who have been sentenced between 3 months and 3 years are prohibited for five years.

    So, here is a fictitious example: Joe Bloggs was a naughty boy in his younger days being led astray by his mates. He was caught thieving or some similar offence and was convicted and sentenced to 3 years inside. He was a good boy inside and released early. He learned the errors of his ways and for the last 20 years has been a model citizen. He always had an interest in guns (especially antique ones) and has been collecting them for years. Being the model citizen he is, he has never fired them as this would be illegal.

    If, on July the 14th, he does not hand them in, he will be a criminal again. How just is that? How will this prevent the real criminal from obtaining guns and using them in crime?
    Historic Guns & Militaria - based in South Bedfordshire - Historic Guns Militaria

  2. #2
    I'm not going to lose any sleep over a few ex cons having to hand in (or otherwise get rid of) their antique firearms.

  3. #3
    Your hypothetical story can quite easily be the other way round.#

    Johnny is a naughty boy, he has realised he can collect antique guns and uses them to rob banks.

    Just using hypothetical made up stories is pointless....

    The over all morale of the story - don't be a naughty boy.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Webley Boy View Post
    You would think that we have enough criminals in this country without the Government making some more, but that is precisely what they are about to do.

    Under the new Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 (which comes into force on 14th July) it will now be an offence for anyone who is prohibited from owning a firearm under Section 21 of the 1968 Act, to be in possession of an 'antique' gun classified under Section 58 of the act (obsolete calibre or pre 1939 muzzle loading gun).

    To clarify, S21 of the 1968 Act prohibits persons who have been sentenced to prison etc for 3 years or more, from ever being in possession of a gun (even so far as picking one up). Those who have been sentenced between 3 months and 3 years are prohibited for five years.

    So, here is a fictitious example: Joe Bloggs was a naughty boy in his younger days being led astray by his mates. He was caught thieving or some similar offence and was convicted and sentenced to 3 years inside. He was a good boy inside and released early. He learned the errors of his ways and for the last 20 years has been a model citizen. He always had an interest in guns (especially antique ones) and has been collecting them for years. Being the model citizen he is, he has never fired them as this would be illegal.

    If, on July the 14th, he does not hand them in, he will be a criminal again. How just is that? How will this prevent the real criminal from obtaining guns and using them in crime?

    Much as I have criticised our firearms laws for being petty and bureaucratic this new one has my support. In your (hopefully) hypothetical example "Joe Bloggs" to whom you refer should have thought of this before he embarked on his career of crime. To get banged up for 3 or more years must take a major effort of criminal conduct. e.g. a couple of years ago we were burgled by a crook with 30 odd previous convictions and all he got was to be sent on a "thinking Course" for 18 months.

    atb Tim

  5. #5
    Oh you are a hard lot. Whatever happened to giving a person a second chance?

    Yes it is a purely hypothetical example and I don't personally know of anyone like that, but there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of antique arms out there and it stands to reason that some people will be in that situation or something like it. I'm not talking about your violent or habitual criminal, I'm talking about someone who may have made a mistake a long time ago and wants to get back into society. Why should he be stigmatised for the rest of his life?

    The other point is more practical. How on earth are the police going to enforce it? Anybody (not just RFD's) can sell an antique gun to anyone else. Who knows who has them?

    My argument is that this is just another useless piece of legislation designed to 'assure' the public that the government is doing something about it. It will do nothing to reduce gun crime (just like the handgun ban). All it will do is add burden to an already overstreched police force and potentially criminalise some people who don't deserve it.
    Historic Guns & Militaria - based in South Bedfordshire - Historic Guns Militaria

  6. #6
    correct they have to be seen doing something even this its futile ,like knife and gun amnestys the crims are not going to hand them in,its just a ploy to get them out of circulation it doesnt make a drop of difference
    DONT START

  7. #7
    There is a little-known right of appeal to the Crown or Sherriff Court. A prohibited person can apply to have the ban lifted.

    I have personally experienced two such appeals where the individual presented no threat whatsoever to public safety or the peace.

    In both cases the chief officer of police was represented by counsel in Court but made no objection to the application. In both cases (one a five year prohibition and the other a life prohibition) the prohibitions were lifted by the presiding judge.

    So there is a route in law to remedy the situation for the right applicants.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Webley Boy View Post
    Oh you are a hard lot. Whatever happened to giving a person a second chance?

    Why should he be stigmatised for the rest of his life?


    Funnily enough one of the items that I lost in an earlier burglary was a rare and fine quality John Manton 20bore muzzle loader that was made around 1819 and subsequently converted from flintlock to percussion, it was worth around a couple of thousand pounds.

    Incredibly the crooks that stole it cut down the stock and barrels and attempted to rob a post office with it.

    So yes, criminals do use antique guns to commit crimes and in my experience of being on the receiving end it has been through crooks being given a second chance, after second chance after second chance.... ad infinitum.

    Perhaps it is time that the criminal justice system had reality check and recognised that only time that the offender can be prevented from reoffending is whilst they are held in secure custody.

    atb Tim

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Webley Boy View Post
    Oh you are a hard lot. Whatever happened to giving a person a second chance?
    Absolutely. Even the Prime Minister recognises that people deserve a second chance. As a man of principle, he even gave a job to that nice Mr Coulson to prove it....

  10. #10
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    Lee Rigby is why. And other criminal use of a s58 weapons. The revolver used was a Dutch revolver, now classed as obsolete. What was loaded into it, causing the injuries to the one guy's hand was modern 9mm ammunition, or some such. Thus why the cylinder blew to pieces I am given to understand.

    44 Russian is s58 but the cases are easily made by cutting down readily available 44 Magnum, or 44 Special cases. Apparently some petty criminals now realise making ammunition for freely sold s58 weapons is less hassle....and no legal impact if in possession at their house of a s58 weapon and no ammunition...than being caught in possession of a modern handgun that is immediately an offence under s5.
    Last edited by enfieldspares; 27-06-2014 at 21:12.

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