Unreasonable condition applied to FAC- Advice please

Cyres

Well-Known Member
Over 1 month ago I returned my FAC+SGC to Avon and Somerset for change of address and a varriation to aquire a .243 rifle.

I currently hold an open FAC and I am allowed to shoot all legal deer species with my .223. My coterminous certificates expire in September 2010.

With my application I submitted on the approved forms: signed permission to shoot deer on several permissions I already shoot on , by way of assisting the process. I obtained my DSC level 1 last summer and I have stalked both alone and accompanied for some years.

Yesterday I contact A@S to see why my certificates were taking so long to return. I was informed that there was a problem with my permissions in that the land was only passed for.22LR and neded to be inspected.

I was also told that as I had applied for a "deer calibre" rifle I would be automatically placed on a restricted ticket.

When I submitted the permissions I thought I would automatically get an open ticket for the .243 and it never occured to me that the land was only approved for .22LR( I applied for my first FAC a decade ago)

I shoot on numerous parcels of land both at home , in Shropshire and the Borders.

My FLO has recently retired, I am meeting my new FLO next Thursday pm.

Advice on how I deal with this would be gratefully appreciated. A .243 with a condition on it would be a good as usleess, seems mad to me that I could be out on my land and could shoot a Muntjac with my .223 but was prevented from doing so with my .243!!!

Has the world gone mad!!!!

D
 
In a word, YES!, you will just have to sit down with your F.E.O. & TRY TO TALK SENSE with him/her! :lol: :lol: , failing a useful outcome speak to BASC, if you are a member. Steve.
 
"I currently hold an open FAC..."

For which calibres?

"...and I am allowed to shoot all legal deer species with my .223"

Really.


You need to clarify your post.

A&S carry out land checks if they are unfamiliar with the land, They have a no risk approach to their pensions so you have to be patient.

Depending on who you speak to in A&S you may get different opinions, they vary.

Can you go in to discuss it with them, make an appointment perhaps, it may resolve matters amicably.
 
Steve,

Forgot to say that I spoke to BASC yesterday, they suggested good talk with FLO, if no joy I will need to contact head of licencing and if still no joy they will contact him directly on my behalf

I would like to get it sorted with my new FLO it would not have been a problem with my old one.

I think I may have to take him out in my truck and show him all my permissions in South Glos and ask him if he wants to inspect all of them. Should keep him busy for a week or so!!

I expect he will also like a trip to Shropshire and Northumberland.

D
 
Jack,

I have an open FAC all all my firearms, inc .177 air rifle, .22lr and .223.

Legal deer means have it on my certificate that I can shoot Roe in Scotland and CWD and Muntys in England with the .223.

Hope that suffices.

D
 
well mine has just come back and for my .223 they have put fox munty/cwd in england/wales.and it doesnt mater what i say they wont let me have 25.06 for fox only whilst stalking.it makes you wonder why each county has different ideas :rolleyes:, so if you have been stalking and wanted to go lamping on your way home you cant, unless you have had another rifle locked in your motor whilst out with a diffrent rifle stalking.i dont think so :evil: . im on a open ticket so whats there bloody problem.i hope you have more luck than me.
 
had a similer problem with 243 i have had open ticket since the start had to point out to pit street that by giving me a open ticket that they had given me the right to shoot where i want as its the shooter who desides if the gun shot is safe with open ticket you can shoot eney ground with permison it is irelivent if the ground was onley passed for air gun open ticket taikes the problem out of police hands and puts the responsabilitey on the shooter so if you shoot on a bit of land and it goes tits up you are held responsable if the police clear the land and it goes tits up then they are partley to blame for clearing land that was not up to the job i have had the feo phone me from the top of a hill saying cant see eney red deer :rolleyes: as if the deer would just stand and wave still got my 243 for red deer even thought he never spotted eney somtimes the law is totaly ignorant of its own laws point out what a open ticket is you deside not them
 
tika.308 said:
well mine has just come back and for my .223 they have put fox munty/cwd in england/wales.and it doesnt mater what i say they wont let me have 25.06 for fox only whilst stalking.it makes you wonder why each county has different ideas

Why not ask them to put it in writing and see how they can justify it?

What force BTW?

That goes against both the Home Office guidance and the recommendation of ACPO FELWG - here it is again for anyone who missed it earlier:

The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group (FELWG) has issued advice that supports Chapter 13.14 & 13.22 of the Home Office guidance. It advised police forces to allow larger calibre rifles to be used to take lesser species i.e. where the primary reason for possession e.g. deer stalking was established, all lesser species such as foxes and pests could then be shot.

This practice has been commonplace in Scotland for some time, and has not endangered public safety in any way. In June 2009 ACPO FELWG again advised forces of a new condition that can be used in place of the standard condition in Appendix 3 of the Home Office guidance. -

The (rifle/sound moderator/firearms/ammunition) shall be used for shooting (Named Principal Quarry Species) and any other lawful quarry, on land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated, and for zeroing on ranges, over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot. (Delete italics where appropriate)

This identifies the primary reason for use e.g. deer/fox control, then allows “other lawful quarry”. Certificate holders are invited to apply for this condition from their local licensing departments.


That is taken from the BACS website so their Firearms Department should be able to take it up for you if you don't want to push them yourself - don't just take it lying down though.
 
Cyres, having dealt with A&S before, (part-time RFD within their area), I feel your pain.

I take it you have moved to their area from another force and are now having the cosh put on you?

Is the principal area of land you have nominated with A&S or elsewhere? If so it might pan out okay once the inspection is done.

But I think you need to request an urgent face-to-face with the FLO to explain your level of experience and present any and all documentation to support your .243 application - good point about you already shooting Muntjac with the .223, throw that one at them if they try to give you any nonsense about restricting you for 'deer'.

It sounds as if the person you spoke to on the 'phone might have been as knowledgable about firearms and licensing as the FEO I had from Devon & Cornwall! :rolleyes:

Stay calm, get your side of things over to them by referring to the HO guidance etc. and best of luck
 
Hi Wraith,

I notice you said your FAC was issued through Pitt Street so I take it you are from the Glasgow area.

When I moved from Glasgow to the NE England I had problems with my open certificate. I explained to them that the police in Strathclyde do not deem land suitable for shooting purposes one way or the other and that this would cause me problems if i were to stalk on land not "named" on my FAC as I would have to check every time if the land was OKd by the relevent authorities before I could go out stalking. Seemed to do the trick.

Can I suggest that Cyres obtain a letter from this lease holder in Scotland explaining the differences in English/Scottish law with respect to "named, un-named land" and the problems this would cause him.

I'm sure the legal eagles on the forum will be able to explain the differences in the Scottish/English laws much better than me.

Willie
 
FAC

About 3 years ago when I applied for a 25-06 as a variation on my open FAC (I already had a .222) they said I needed a mentor - I asked why as a .222 is a centre bore rifle as is the 25-06 - they immediately backed down and granted the variation (TVP).

Tonyc
 
To answere some points,

I have been in A@S for the last 20 yrs, it is just that my FLO has retired and I moved house in December only a couple of miles down the road but it is in another FLO's patch, and I have never met him.

Thats why I had to change addresses on my certs and thought it might be ideal time to put in for the .243 to keep the admin down. Also A@S always come and reinspect security arrangements when you move, done it 3 times now.

Trouble is the paperwork is dealt with by the clerical team/supervisor who clearly have no experience with firearms.

Normally I would have spoken to Jeff but as he had retired and they were reorganising areas so no FLO to talk to.

So in went certs, permissions, copy of DSC1 and verification.

Just appeas a shambles, obviously they don't consider a .223 to be a deer calibre rifle.

I could understand it if I was moving from a RF to C/F but I have had decades of experience with C/F, at School I ended up being the schools armourer and shot all military calibres whilst in the CCF it was .303 Lee Enfields and 7.62mm SLR's in thoose days.

Will post next Thurs outcome of meeting.

D
 
Ah, got it!

It just goes to show how, when it comes to firearms licensing, there can be total contradiction even within the same force - let alone between different constabularies!! :mad:

Let's hope you just happened to speak to the office temp and some semblance of normality, (insofar as anything to do with FA licensing can be considered normal!), is restored soon.

I'm still awaiting a reply regarding the condition I have for 12 bore slugs which contradicts what D&C have actually stated in their own Firearms Liaison Committee meeting!

Isn't it all fun. :rolleyes:
 
Willie said:
Hi Wraith,

I notice you said your FAC was issued through Pitt Street so I take it you are from the Glasgow area.

When I moved from Glasgow to the NE England I had problems with my open certificate. I explained to them that the police in Strathclyde do not deem land suitable for shooting purposes one way or the other and that this would cause me problems if i were to stalk on land not "named" on my FAC as I would have to check every time if the land was OKd by the relevent authorities before I could go out stalking. Seemed to do the trick.

Can I suggest that Cyres obtain a letter from this lease holder in Scotland explaining the differences in English/Scottish law with respect to "named, un-named land" and the problems this would cause him.

I'm sure the legal eagles on the forum will be able to explain the differences in the Scottish/English laws much better than me.

Willie
hi bud dumbarton open ticket is standard in scotland on first aplicaton you do not have to inform the police over which land you shoot on it states on you fac eney land which the holder has permision there wording in england open ticket is granted 1 after a few years or if you get lots of ground and send in your aplicaton so as your feo is runing about like a demented mad man then send him more land to look at this generaly results in a open ticket as they have onley a few feo people to cover some vast areas better still tell them you stalk in scotland and that 243 is the minimum call alowead for red deer at this point you may be asked where just list off every stalking let from the back of sporting rifle bet you get your open ticket ;)
 
I never cease to be amazed at how the different forces can have such range of views on the same subject. Fortunately in 25 years I have never been told that my permissions would have to be inspected for suitability for differing calibres; I guess they leave it to me to judge what's safe. Is it any wonder there are now solicitors specialising in firearms law and making a killing by taking the forces to court (on behalf of their clients).

I have heard before of a PC arriving to inspect ground only to discover when challenged, that he didn't know one end of a rifle from the other, so how was he qualified to do the "Inspection".....

I think the answer is that certain counties will try to restrict you as much as possible, but if you challenge them, and can argue your case well, then they soon back down.
 
This subject never ceases to amaze me as I honestly don't know what qualification someone gets to enable them to determine THE MAXIMUM calibre of rifle to be used on any area of land. As I've said before I am an FEO with 26 years in the Police and have never met or spoke to any FEO anywhere who has any suitable qualification to do this. The way we work is we determine if the land is suitable for the calibre requested AND has the stated quarry species ie. deer.....the way I decide if the land is suitable is either by contacting the land owner/lease holder/syndicate leader or in my own case using my experience as well as I have also been stalking deer for many years.In general when an application comes in for our area ( which covers over 1300 sq miles ) we as a local department are familiar with the area in question and if there is any doubt we will go for a look ourselves but we will not and cannot determine a maximum calibre for the ground,I mean what makes it safer to fire a .243 over a piece of land as opposed to a .308 ??
We regularly have enquiries from English forces asking what the maximum calibre authorised for an area of land is and all I do is ask them what calibre of rifle the applicant wants to use and what the quarry species is... if the calibre to be used is suitable for the quarry ,the quarry is on that land and the land is suitable then they are told that everything is in order and get the go ahead.
 
Even better - get him cloned and installed in all the Police Firearms Licensing offices thoughout the land!
 
finnbear270 I'm just glad that I work north of the border and have a certificate north of the border,I take my hat of to the guys who come into this great world of stalking but unfortunately do it in the south because they really must feel that officialdom puts nothing but obstacles in their way right from the start and to make matters worse it must be blatently obvious to them that a hell of a lot of those who they must lean on and rely on don't seem to have a clue what they are talking about.So much for a level playing field and all forces reading from the same hymn sheet, different interpretations can be taken of various aspects of the licensing process but down south they really seem to have re-written the process to suite themselves a lot of the time and even then things are done differently from force to force.
 
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