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Thread: RFD to RFD transfers and FAC requirements

  1. #1

    RFD to RFD transfers and FAC requirements

    Ordered some reloading components (including expanding bullets) from a gunshot in Wiltshire and had them transferred to an RFD closer to home. I was expecting to collect them from the receiving RFD and that he would enter them on my certificate.

    Had a quick look at my FAC (new format) earlier today and in the Guidance notes it clearly states that it's up to the RFD that sends them out (i.e. the Seller) to fill in Table 2 on the certificate, not the RFD that hands the goods over. It was crystal clear but I phoned BASC and they confirmed this is indeed the case and the FAC is now in the post.

    The gunshop is just as surprised as I am.

    Has there been a recent change in the rules or has this always been the case?

  2. #2
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    Surely the delivering RFD is acting as agent for the seller. Your local RFD is carrying out the due diligence on your entitlement as it will be in the records of having been transferred to them. It happens fine with rifles. RFD's over here (and in Essex when I was there, but there's been quite a shake up in Essex recently.....) wouldn't even enter such components on the FAC (rightly or wrongly).
    Nooooooooooooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!! Our main weapon is.........

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Red View Post
    Surely the delivering RFD is acting as agent for the seller. Your local RFD is carrying out the due diligence on your entitlement as it will be in the records of having been transferred to them. It happens fine with rifles. RFD's over here (and in Essex when I was there, but there's been quite a shake up in Essex recently.....) wouldn't even enter such components on the FAC (rightly or wrongly).
    That's how I imagined it would work. I'm not sure when the face to face requirement was introduced but I think it's fairly recent. Perhaps it doesn't quite fit in with the wording of the 1997 Firearms (Amendment) Act with respect to "the Seller".

  4. #4
    Once the RFD that had the stock you required has sent them to your local RFD, the original RFD does not have them, your local RFD does.
    So when you collet them from your local RFD you are buying them from him so he is the seller and is required to do any paper work required, if any.
    Here is one way of explaining it in a roundabout way.
    UK importers bring licenced items into UK and then distribute them to local RFDs who bring them onto their books.
    So you could say, when you buy these licenced items, you are actually buying them from the UK importer through the local RFD who is the end seller and responsible for recording details of such sales.

  5. #5
    The exact wording:

    Guidance to anybody who sells, hires, gives or lends firearms and/or ammunition to the holder of this certificate:

    Para 4
    "If you are selling a firearm and/or ammunition which will be sent to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person, you should complete the table(s) and notify the Police of the transaction concerning the firearm (as in 2 above). The dealer who actually hands over the firearm and/or ammunition should not complete the table(s) or notify the Police (except in circumstances that may require investigation as above).

    Is it me?
    Last edited by Cloudhopper; 20-08-2014 at 19:18.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudhopper View Post
    The exact wording:

    Guidance to anybody who sells, hires, gives or lends firearms and/or ammunition to the holder of this certificate:

    Para 4
    "If you are selling a firearm and/or ammunition which will be sent to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person, you should complete the table(s) and notify the Police of the transaction concerning the firearm (as in 2 above). The dealer who actually hands over the firearm and/or ammunition should not complete the table(s) or notify the Police (except in circumstances that may require investigation as above).

    Is it me?
    Just went and checked mine - and No, it's not you....Mine now says the same.
    Nooooooooooooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!! Our main weapon is.........

  7. #7
    Think it has said this for a long time, it's just that common practice has ignored it and gone down the usual route.
    Face to face does the trick and the end result is the same.

    Stan
    Last edited by smullery; 20-08-2014 at 21:17. Reason: Spelling

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by EMcC View Post
    Once the RFD that had the stock you required has sent them to your local RFD, the original RFD does not have them, your local RFD does.
    So when you collet them from your local RFD you are buying them from him so he is the seller and is required to do any paper work required, if any.
    Here is one way of explaining it in a roundabout way.
    UK importers bring licenced items into UK and then distribute them to local RFDs who bring them onto their books.
    So you could say, when you buy these licenced items, you are actually buying them from the UK importer through the local RFD who is the end seller and responsible for recording details of such sales.
    Not 'who has them': rather 'who owns them'.

    I bought a rifle from a distant RFD. I arranged the purchase on the 'phone, sent him a cheque and my FAC. With the cheque I had paid for the rifle, which therefore became mine; and he entered it onto my FAC. FAC and rifle arrived at local RFD, and I collected both. The FAC allowed the RFD to check who I was, and that I was the lawful owner of the rifle he was handing me.

    Your thing about the importers is probably clearer if you think likewise about who owns the rifle you're buying.
    The RFD from whom you bought a rifle which he had bought from the importer is selling you something he owned.
    The RFD who has received a rifle which you've already bought from another person or RFD is actually just giving you something you already own. It should therefore already be entered on your FAC by the person/RFD who sold it to you.

    That's my take on it, anyhow.
    Last edited by Dalua; 20-08-2014 at 21:06.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalua View Post
    Not 'who has them': rather 'who owns them'.
    I bought a rifle from a distant RFD. I arranged the purchase on the 'phone, sent him a cheque and my FAC. With the cheque I had paid for the rifle, which therefore became mine; and he entered it onto my FAC. FAC and rifle arrived at local RFD, and I collected both. The FAC allowed the RFD to check who I was, and that I was the lawful owner of the rifle he was handing me.
    Your thing about the importers is probably clearer if you think likewise about who owns the rifle you're buying.
    The RFD from whom you bought a rifle which he had bought from the importer is selling you something he owned.
    The RFD who has received a rifle which you've already bought from another person or RFD is actually just giving you something you already own. It should therefore already be entered on your FAC by the person/RFD who sold it to you.That's my take on it, anyhow.
    Yes that sounds reasonable too but I wouldn't like the idea of my FC being out of my control for so long.
    Another thing too is, if your local dealer hasn't got a firearm or ammo that you require and he gets it from the importer for you, it is the same as transfers of other items between RFD's on your behalf.
    Once they have it in their possession they bring it onto their books so legally they then become the legal owners and you then rock up and buy it off of them.
    That's the way I see it and have worked this system not so long ago when I had a gun clearout.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by EMcC View Post
    Another thing too is, if your local dealer hasn't got a firearm or ammo that you require and he gets it from the importer for you, it is the same as transfers of other items between RFD's on your behalf.
    If your RFD orders rifle or ammunition from the wholesaler, whether to sell it to you specifically or not, he buys it from that importer/wholesaler and becomes the owner. If he then sells it to you, he writes it on to your FAC.

    It is therefore not at all the same as a transfer of an item that you've bought from another RFD or person. He doesn't own that item - you do. So it should be on your FAC already.
    The receiving RFD is no more the lawful owner of it than he would be the owner of a rifle you'd left with him for repair.

    Possession is not ownership!!
    Last edited by Dalua; 20-08-2014 at 21:40.

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