Minimum Calibres

Oly

Well-Known Member
Does anyone know why, instead of designating minimum calibres for specific quarry species, the powers that be don't simply designate minimum bullet weights or energy requirements?

I know energy does come into it at present (along with calibre) but why include calibre at all? If they need to add another factor would bullet weight not be more suitable along with energy?
 
That will depend on the country that you are in!

Ecosse, states a minimum of 50gr on Roe and 100gr for all other species.
 
Does anyone know why, instead of designating minimum calibres for specific quarry species, the powers that be don't simply designate minimum bullet weights or energy requirements?

I suppose because the calibre of a firearm is something that most people (including some FEOs) can easily understand and apply to a form of certification. Bullet weights and, even more so, energy alone cannot be so clearly licensed and listed without the reference to calibre. Also, individual ammunition manufacturers will have different published energy figures for cartridges that appear on the face of it to be identical - then there is the homeloader to consider.

AFAIK the only quarry species with a minimum legal calibre requirement is deer - wild boar and fox are advisory onlyin some force areas and everything else has no stated calibre.
 
Jingsy,

That is madness,

So in England you legally shoot a 600lb woodland Red stag with a 55gr 243, and yet cross Hadrians wall and you need to use a 100gr bullet to shoot a 20lb Munty or a 30lb Sika calf.

Bonkers.
 
Jingsy,

That is madness,

.........................................

Bonkers.

You didn't expect anything to do with Firearms Law and it's administration to be anything else though - did you?

Hows about the situation in Ireland up until not that long ago - .22CF only on all deer!
 
My understanding is that in Scotland you can shoot roe with a 22 centerfire min bullet weight of 50gn and minimum velocity of 2450fps or 1750 ftlbs
In England anything other than muntjac need to be shot with a minimum calibre of .240 and 100gn bullet.

I'm sure you will correct meif i'm wrong.

regards
griff
 
My understanding is that in Scotland you can shoot roe with a 22 centerfire min bullet weight of 50gn and minimum velocity of 2450fps or 1750 ftlbs
In England anything other than muntjac need to be shot with a minimum calibre of .240 and 100gn bullet.

I'm sure you will correct meif i'm wrong.

regards
griff

Griff, in England the 22CF can be used on Munty's and CWD, not on Roe, 50gr minimum bullet, about 1000ft/lbs etc...

For Roe and up is is 243" with minimum energy requirements, no minimum bullet weight. In NI, ours is largely a copy of the Scottish regs, but .236" bullet diameter, 100gr minimum weight and an energy requirement which escapes me.
 
My understanding is that in Scotland you can shoot roe with a 22 centerfire min bullet weight of 50gn and minimum velocity of 2450fps or 1750 ftlbs
In England anything other than muntjac need to be shot with a minimum calibre of .240 and 100gn bullet.

I'm sure you will correct meif i'm wrong.

regards
griff

I am not sure but I think it is any 240 cal or over and any bullet weight as long as ME is 1700ft/lb or greater
 
And let us not forget that most dangerous game calibres - eg 470 Nitro Express etc are not deer legal in Scotland because they do not meet the min velocity requirements of 2,450 fps!
 
In Scotland there is no minimum caliber for deer but the energy + velocity are fixed minimums so for Roe is a 50gr Bullet, 1000ft/lb and 2450 fps. All other species are 100gr, 1750 and same velocity.

So in principal with a custom 100gr .224 bullet out of a 22-250 you could meet the minimums for all species in Scotland but I wouldn't recommend anyone try!!
 
so just a bit of math....

a 22-250 would need to achieve a muzzle velocity of 2808fps generating 1750.44 ft/lb to be all species legal in Scotland. Bet though it would group like sh1t.
 
Prior to 1986 there was no restriction on calibres in Scotland, after the change without concocting some crazy loads,.243 is the minimum calibre legal for all deer species.
 
Does anyone know why, instead of designating minimum calibres for specific quarry species, the powers that be don't simply designate minimum bullet weights or energy requirements?

Probably because they were decided upon by a committee made up entirely of professional committee attendees. You do see the adverts in the papers now and again for this committee or that committee and, of course, there is little in the way of requirements other than a record of having served on other committees. I imagine you gain brownie points on the committee circuit by flapping your mouth about a lot and getting noticed as the "right sort of chap..." Having encounted the sort of people who attend it seems intelligence is not a requirement and actual knowledge of the subject matter is also not deemed necessary, in fact it may be a distinct disadvantage.

I imagine that the "screwing about with deer legislation" committee was made up of professional committee attendees who took evidence from a bunch of little people, in the shape of deer managers and a range of NGOs and quangos. They then met once a month for a year to justify their salary and, remembering some of the random numbers they had picked up on, came up with some perverse, ill considered conclusion based on a partial understanding of the situation. They added their successful contribution to their CV and moved onwards and upwards. That's how the country works, and that's why you see the same people go round the committee circuit year after year.

As a stalker the bottom line is that to be legal for all deer in the UK you need to shoot stout 100 grain loads from a 243. I have no aptitude for remembering all the other figures so I kept that in mind and bought a 308. Problem solved.

Of course when the "messing about with firearms regulation committee" reduces the calibre they will allow you to have below that determined by the "screwing about with deer legislation" committee as necessary for deer then we will have a problem.
 
My understanding is that in Scotland you can shoot roe with a 22 centerfire min bullet weight of 50gn and minimum velocity of 2450fps or 1750 ftlbs
In England anything other than muntjac need to be shot with a minimum calibre of .240 and 100gn bullet.

I'm sure you will correct meif i'm wrong.

regards
griff

1000 ftlbs (1356 joules) minimum muzzle energy for roe in Scotland.
 
Prior to 1986 there was no restriction on calibres in Scotland, after the change without concocting some crazy loads,.243 is the minimum calibre legal for all deer species.

The Scottish legislation (wisely) still says nothing about calibres.... If we ever have to use lead free bullets, all the 243s won't be legal for red/fallow/sika, but the law won't need to be changed.
 
These minimum calibres came about because of self-appointed, self-opinionated arseholes full of self-importance who always see government consultation on deer and/or firearms legislation to be a means to promote their own point of view.

Thus making illegal such calibres as 300 Sherwoood that was an excellent "park deer" round well suited to its role within its defined limits. Or that there was not a class of disabled stalkers needed to use need pump action or self-loading rifles.

Recently we had the same self-appointed, etc., etc., pronouncing on the issue of shot guns to kill deer with a deeply flawed study that thankfully received the ridicule, derision and contempt it deserved in the British shooting press.

I think that the BDS will be found to be one of "the usual suspects". Empire building at the expense of everybody else that does not accept that things can only be done "their way".
 
jcampbellsmith, while you are correct that Scottish legislation does not state a minimum calibre, my point was that ,243 is the
minimum calibre that meets the criteria for all deer species, after 1986 I could no longer use 6.5x54 as it could not meet the new criteria.
 
...after 1986 I could no longer use 6.5x54 as it could not meet the new criteria...
A new criterea that is an absolutely total nonsense.

Probably after the 303 with 215 grain bullet (that also could not meet the new criteria) the 6.5mm MS was one of the most widely sucessfully used hill stalking calibres by a considerable number in the 20th Century.

Yet you talk to the old stalkers that used both the 215 grain 303 and the 6.5mm MS and they will, with all honesty, say how effective they were.

I know an old guy who used a Webley and Scott double rifle in 6.5mm (the "other" rimmed version but similar ballistics) who swore by it and his converted No4 Parker Hale "Deluxe".
 
jcampbellsmith, while you are correct that Scottish legislation does not state a minimum calibre, my point was that ,243 is the
minimum calibre that meets the criteria for all deer species, after 1986 I could no longer use 6.5x54 as it could not meet the new criteria.

Although .243 is the most common quoted minimum calibre .240H&H is legal for all UK. It fires a 100gr bullet at about 2800ish fps. I had one for about 15 years or so and only got rid of it when the price of ammo went through the roof.

I was turned down by Lothian & Borders Police many years ago for a variation for an Alex Henry DB .450 Black Powder rifle as it was not fast enough for the legislation. It was a lovely rifle too.
 
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