Lack of youngsters

purplepig

Well-Known Member
Hi, I control the deer on a little 30 acre wood.there are a small population of roe there which I monitor on trail cameras- I've left a master buck there for 4 years now along with three does- it's the second year now that one of the old does has no followers and neither of the other two have any either, can deer be infertile? as I shoot the foxes hard, all be it that the wood joins on to a 250 acre wood which isn't shot at all. It just seems strange to me there aren't more youngsters about.
my second question is about the small population of muntjack there, I only ever seem to catch them on camera at there fraying stocks at night and never in the day am or pm, is there a reason for this?
 
something disturbing them during day,dogwalkers?poachers?maybe or nothing to interest them there in the day so feel safer in more cover ie bigger wood,
 
In relation to the Muntjac:- If they have sufficient food within good cover, then they may not venture out of cover in daylight.

For the past fifteen years, we have been controlling Muntjac in woodlands that were severely damaged.
As the understory and particularly bramble has recovered, the Muntjac have become increasingly difficult to see.

They feed and remain in cover and avoid dog walkers etc. as well as stalkers. Now even most of my favourite calling spots have become overgrown too.

We are hoist by our own petard as the better the regrowth the more difficult it is to keep shooting the Muntjac.
If the adjoining large wood has plenty of food and cover, it will be a struggle to get on terms with them.
 
Deer are no different from any other species. Yes, they become less fertile and then infertile. That's why deer managers have a cull plan taking out the old and weak as part of that cull. 4 years with the same master buck. It sounds like you're encouraging inbreeding and therefore a weak herd to me? Maybe 30 acres isn't enough to guarantee that but your cull plan/system appears limited to me.
Baguio
 
I do think it out, and i adopt the same theory in the other woods I shoot.ie that i have found a master buck will cause far less damage than younger ones, I have decided to bump him off this year though! My conundrum lies with the fact that I've been shooting youngsters in April/May marauding in from next door, but have had no photos with the resident does having followers..?
 
Take out the resident does. Nothing else for it IMO. It sounds like they will soon be replaced and possibly for the better?
Baguio
 
The common denominator here is the Buck who may be infertile. The does may well have been covered but to no avail.
Probably worth taking him out and let another youngster in to take over.Inbreeding within deer herds does not create a problem with genetics - unlike Stowmarket!
MS:D
 
Hi, I control the deer on a little 30 acre wood.there are a small population of roe there which I monitor on trail cameras- I've left a master buck there for 4 years now along with three does- it's the second year now that one of the old does has no followers and neither of the other two have any either, can deer be infertile? as I shoot the foxes hard, all be it that the wood joins on to a 250 acre wood which isn't shot at all. It just seems strange to me there aren't more youngsters about.
my second question is about the small population of muntjack there, I only ever seem to catch them on camera at there fraying stocks at night and never in the day am or pm, is there a reason for this?

No answer for the Roe as there are none on my ground, Last year I was asked to thin ou the Muntjac and found the most productive time was after the harvest.
I noted the areas they were around on nights I was lamping for foxes, and then covered those fields before dusk.
On other farms they are around but keep them selves out of sight other wise I would have knocked one or two on my travels.
Some numbers for you, 3 from 2 high seats, 11 on foot close to the high seat areas. Being mobile worked better for me.

Tim.243
 
Roe my opinion the most common reason for no kids Fox's. But this is easy are the Does getting pregnant they will be obviously much fatter in the spring if they are. There is no mistake in march /April. I have watched a pair of Fox's getting the Doe to chase them and dive in at the Kids . I suggest you don't take that nice Buck out until you know if its his fault . woodfordfallow
 
Roe my opinion the most common reason for no kids Fox's. But this is easy are the Does getting pregnant they will be obviously much fatter in the spring if they are. There is no mistake in march /April. I have watched a pair of Fox's getting the Doe to chase them and dive in at the Kids .
However, there are plenty of youngsters about, just not in this wood. Foxes would have cleared the neighbouring wood too, surely?
 
.Inbreeding within deer herds does not create a problem with genetics - unlike Stowmarket!
MS:D
You should have your own comedy show on TV MS.........We could then turn you off whenever we wanted to! :rofl:

There's certainly no infertility issues with the Old bucks in Elmswell that's for sure!
Baguio
 
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Deer are no different from any other species. Yes, they become less fertile and then infertile. That's why deer managers have a cull plan taking out the old and weak as part of that cull. 4 years with the same master buck. It sounds like you're encouraging inbreeding and therefore a weak herd to me? Maybe 30 acres isn't enough to guarantee that but your cull plan/system appears limited to me.
Baguio

Deer appear different to other animals when it comes to inbreeding. Down here all of our chital come from 4 (2:2) animals imported over a century ago. Absolutely no fertility problems, even in populations started from this small base & considered to be bottlenecked, then another population started from this "bottlenecked" population & again & again & again. No issues at all. Same with Moluccan rusa, maybe only 60 pure specimens left world wide in captivity but there is no way that Javans will be put over them to open the gene pool, fertility issues or not. Bye the way, there is no fertility issues in this species which has bottle necks at several points in its genetic history. Lets not forget Persian fallow. How inbred are these? I'm even putting the sire over his daughters in my own herd this year. Im I worried? Yes, but not about fertility.

You need to look at recruitment & fecundity. The major influence on these are nutrition (particularly at the key times). Recruitment can also be effected by predators (predator control & cover) & disease (sheep?).

Sharkey
 
Deer appear different to other animals when it comes to inbreeding. Down here all of our chital come from 4 (2:2) animals imported over a century ago. Absolutely no fertility problems, even in populations started from this small base & considered to be bottlenecked, then another population started from this "bottlenecked" population & again & again & again. No issues at all. Same with Moluccan rusa, maybe only 60 pure specimens left world wide in captivity but there is no way that Javans will be put over them to open the gene pool, fertility issues or not. Bye the way, there is no fertility issues in this species which has bottle necks at several points in its genetic history. Lets not forget Persian fallow. How inbred are these? I'm even putting the sire over his daughters in my own herd this year. Im I worried? Yes, but not about fertility.

You need to look at recruitment & fecundity. The major influence on these are nutrition (particularly at the key times). Recruitment can also be effected by predators (predator control & cover) & disease (sheep?).

Sharkey

Sharkey, I think we all agree that the most likely cause is the buck being infertile. It's easy to say that inbreeding has no affect and in the wild it probably has limited chance to be tested anyway. However how many captive herd managers would use the same stag/buck/bull/tup year after year? Why is this? From the herds you mention, did anyone keep records of what percentage of females failed to calf each year. Sure the majority were fertile as the herd increased but have you proof that there was no affect on fertility, still born or deformed calves? I not saying that there was or wasn't but to say one way or the other would require evidence. I think we can be reasonably confident that nutrition or predation isn't the major cause though as there are youngsters about the area.
Baguio
 
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I am not sure about the buck being infertile that in its self should not matter. At the later end of the rut she will get covered by a few bucks .If she has not kids shoot her she is not good stock.Ps if you have left him for four years I would say take him out to. Start a fresh think like a stockman.
 
The common denominator here is the Buck who may be infertile. The does may well have been covered but to no avail.
Probably worth taking him out and let another youngster in to take over.Inbreeding within deer herds does not create a problem with genetics - unlike Stowmarket!
MS:D

:rofl:
 
Agree with six pointer on this ,it's unlikely to be because of the Buck whether he is infertile or not, Roe Does almost invariably mate with more than one Buck when they come into season , with Roe the Doe will travel some distance to find a Buck, Roe Doe's are very promiscuous they will tend to mate with the best Buck in an area first after that initial mating she will mate with each and every Buck she can find for as long as her season lasts, which can be anything from a few hours to a few days, rember that as far as Roe mating is concerned its the Doe that calls the shots not the Buck.

Are you sure that the Doe's have not given birth natural mortality can be very high in Roe in some years , as much as 90% if the weather is very bad at birthing time, Roe can also reabsorb a fetus if conditions are not good, for example if the population is to high for the food vailable then recruitment can be poor.

30 acres is a very small area to try to manage and think you need to consider what is happening with the population in the surrounding area,one infertile Buck would not cause what you say is happening.
 
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Sharkey, I think we all agree that the most likely cause is the buck being infertile. It's easy to say that inbreeding has no affect and in the wild it probably has limited chance to be tested anyway. However how many captive herd managers would use the same stag/buck/bull/tup year after year? Why is this? From the herds you mention, did anyone keep records of what percentage of females failed to calf each year. Sure the majority were fertile as the herd increased but have you proof that there was no affect on fertility, still born or deformed calves? I not saying that there was or wasn't but to say one way or the other would require evidence. I think we can be reasonably confident that nutrition or predation isn't the major cause though as there are youngsters about the area.
Baguio

"Youngsters about". What sired them? Last I looked, deer didn't practice monogamy. You seriously don't think your issue is due to one infertile buck?

As for records & monitoring? Deer such as Persian fallow are a CITIES 1 animal & have their own "red book". I think we have a wee bit of idea about fecundity & recruitment in deer, (not just Messo's but they are a good example). Now that more Persian's are being released back into their indigenous range we are also getting some interesting insights into dispersal & dispersal rates for this species.

Can you name another wild animal which has had more research papers published on them than deer?

Sharkey
 
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