Shotgun Question

This may assist. H.O Guidance 2013 Chapter 2.

2.14 The marking and certification requirement does not, however, apply in the case of smooth-bore guns, which are manufactured with a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges. Such guns are not regarded as having been ‘adapted’ within the meaning of section 2(3) since the capacity of the magazine will be secured during the process of manufacture. Although the guns need not comply with the Secretary of State’s specifications, the magazine must meet the requirement in section 1(3)(a)(ii) of the 1968 Act; that is, the magazine must be incapable of holding more than two cartridges.
2.15 When assessing the magazine capacity of a firearm, consideration should be given to the number of cartridges that the firearm was designed or proofed to take. For example, where a shotgun has a magazine which is capable of holding three cartridges but was designed to hold only two, the shotgun should be considered a section 2 firearm rather than a section 1 firearm. Although interpretation of the law is ultimately a matter for the courts, it is thought unlikely, for example, that the insertion of a plastic or wooden plug into a large capacity fixed magazine would, of itself, be regarded as rendering that gun as having a magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges. The restriction would need to be of an equivalent standard to the methods set out in the Home Office approved specifications in order to meet the requirements of section 1(3)(a)(ii).

Pointless having a 3" semi auto if it only fits 2x 2.5" carts!!
 
Not true... 2X3 1/2"=7"....3X2 1/2"=7 1/2" so if three shorties fit in the magazine the gun IS ILLEGAL.


Loaded carts are shorter than the Chamber length and the Un crimped Cart Tho i guess the mag needs to be able to take 2 of the longest loads I guess a roll crimp using the min needed of the 3.5" shell is about as long as you can get and a Star crimped 2.5" with a light load of small shot the shortest commercially available, they may wad out to a min crimped lenght . As said you can load and crimp as short as you want if it cycles

this is 2 new un loaded 3.5" cases (10 bore not 12 but same length) and 3 70mm 2.75" carts crimped length is 58mm. If they make the 3.5Mags fir full 3.5 Carts (you can load and glue in a top disc no crimp) then you should be able to fit 3 x 2.75" carts in the mag let lone shorter 2.5" so would say All 3.5" pump and semi section 2s fall foul of this if it was law

oh and 2" 50mm carts are avalible as well you should be able to get 4 of those in the mag 38mm crimped length would mean that 3 x 38mm = 114 mm so say a max mag length of 110mm to make sure you cannot load more than 2 of the shortest carts avalible and you would only get 1 x 2.75" (star crimped to 58mm) or longer in

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Pointless having a 3" semi auto if it only fits 2x 2.5" carts!!

Can you explain your comment please as I am not sure what you mean ?

My reading of this is, if the gun is designed/proofed for e.g 3.5 inch cartridges and the magazine holds only 2 x 3.5 inch cartridges, then it should be regarded as a Section 2 shotgun. Despite the fact that it may hold more than 2 shorter cartridges.

This view was circulated to firearms licensing managers (by Acpo Felwg) several years ago when 3.5 inch mag (steel shot) guns first appeared.
It was opinion then and as the HO Guidance states, it remains opinion until tested in the courts.
 
It is, as Uncle Norm says, the cartridge it is proofed for which counts. However most semis have an added "safety" feature that if you load very short cartridges it jams and effectively becomes a single shot with added annoyance features!!!!! :stir: :D

Best wishes,

David.
 
According to my FEO that is an illegal shotgun. She tried four in mine but couldn't get the last one to load so mine is legal. Beretta did let some slip through the net and if yours can load four you are breaking the law according to her. She carries four dummy rounds just for this problem and a gun that can load four will be taken off you.

Nothing personal Red Dot but it's a good job that she didn't have some 2 inch shells to try in your gun or she might have confiscated your "illegal shotgun" ..... That is yours and every other 3 shot semi auto shotgun on the UK market that is.


One thing is for certain, manufacturers making semi auto shotguns destined for the UK will have a damn sight more knowledge of what is legal here than what your FEO appears to have. She appears to be inventing her own idea of what is legal or not. Unfortunately this often sums up the type of thinking that some FEO's have.
 
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Obviously.... But she had 3 commercially available blanks. Try taking yours to you local FA department and ask them to try?
 
Can you explain your comment please as I am not sure what you mean ?

My reading of this is, if the gun is designed/proofed for e.g 3.5 inch cartridges and the magazine holds only 2 x 3.5 inch cartridges, then it should be regarded as a Section 2 shotgun. Despite the fact that it may hold more than 2 shorter cartridges.

if a semi is designed for be "two plus one" but is restricted to 2+1 of a shorter than chamber cartridge then it is not a 2+1!

I agree it MUST be taken on the chamber designation not how many short cartridges you can stuff into it
 
Obviously.... But she had 3 commercially available blanks. Try taking yours to you local FA department and ask them to try?

I obviously wouldn't ... I was making the point that she clearly doesn't know what she is talking about.
 
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It's fine, it's designed for 3.5" cartridges in the magazine and one in the chamber, and that's what it takes. The fact that you can shove more shorter cartridges in there is by-the-by. All 3.5" semi-autos have this feature as far as I know.
I'm sure your right. I've had a couple and they were both 4 shot capacity with short cartridges
 
In theory, the tube could accommodate 5x2" cartridges, as it could legally be 10" long, long enough for two 3.5" plus a bit, but not enough to fit three. It's capacity is deemed on what it will hold, not 'almost' hold. Only becomes an issue if/when loaded with shorter cartridges shorter than the design, loaded up to three or more.
 
In theory, the tube could accommodate 5x2" cartridges, as it could legally be 10" long, long enough for two 3.5" plus a bit, but not enough to fit three. It's capacity is deemed on what it will hold, not 'almost' hold. Only becomes an issue if/when loaded with shorter cartridges shorter than the design, loaded up to three or more.

according to the above quoted HO guidance from the Working group its not an issue if its a 3.5" gun and the Mag can only hold 2 x 3.5" Shells its section 2 says nothing about loading more shorter shells being a problem infact says its not and that it dosn't make it S1 for guidance if more shorter shells fit .
Forces have been Issued the APP that they Must follow HO guidance.

Oh and you would get 3 3.5 Crimped shells in a 10" tube you loose 1/2" OAL on the crimp for factory But you would still get your 5 2" in 8.75" tube as they are 38mm 1.5" crimped lenght
 
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What is a restricted shotgun?
The Firearms Amendment Act 1988 removed "pump-action" and "semi-automatic" shotguns, which had a magazine capable of holding more than two cartridges, out of the hands of shotgun certificate holders.
They became Section 1 firearms and, since that time, can only be legally held on a firearms certificate.
However, many shotgun certificate holders already possessed such weapons, and consequently either had to dispose of them or have them "restricted".

Restriction is the adaptation of the shotgun magazine allowing it to hold no more than two conventional size cartridges. A third cartridge can still be held in the breech, and this is quite legal.

The adaptation must be done in a manner approved by the Secretary of State and should be carried out by a fully qualified gunsmith. The adaptation is not legal until the shotgun has been proved by one of the two Proof Houses, duly proof marked and a certificate issued by the Proof House.

If you plan to acquire a "pump-action" or "semi-automatic" shotgun on a shotgun certificate, you must ensure that the magazine is incapable of holding more than two cartridges by manufacture or adaptation. In the latter case the shotgun must be so proof marked and accompanied by a certificate from the issuing Proof House. The magazine must also be non removable.

Failure to ensure these points may expose you to being in unlawful possession of Section 1 firearms.
 
What is a restricted shotgun?
The Firearms Amendment Act 1988 removed "pump-action" and "semi-automatic" shotguns, which had a magazine capable of holding more than two cartridges, out of the hands of shotgun certificate holders.
They became Section 1 firearms and, since that time, can only be legally held on a firearms certificate.
However, many shotgun certificate holders already possessed such weapons, and consequently either had to dispose of them or have them "restricted".

Restriction is the adaptation of the shotgun magazine allowing it to hold no more than two conventional size cartridges. A third cartridge can still be held in the breech, and this is quite legal.

The adaptation must be done in a manner approved by the Secretary of State and should be carried out by a fully qualified gunsmith. The adaptation is not legal until the shotgun has been proved by one of the two Proof Houses, duly proof marked and a certificate issued by the Proof House.

If you plan to acquire a "pump-action" or "semi-automatic" shotgun on a shotgun certificate, you must ensure that the magazine is incapable of holding more than two cartridges by manufacture or adaptation. In the latter case the shotgun must be so proof marked and accompanied by a certificate from the issuing Proof House. The magazine must also be non removable.

Failure to ensure these points may expose you to being in unlawful possession of Section 1 firearms.


so all mags must only be able to take 2off 2" shells and therefore only 1 of 2.75" or longer to comply with this

HO guidance has been issued that the mag capacity is based on the Chamber size
 
I think the hint is In there... "conventional size cartridges". I have never seen anyone using less than 2 1/2" which cannot be legally loaded X3 in a fixed S2 magazine.

OK back to the original post... I was told by the head of CSP firearms licencing that some Beretta autos imported in to the UK can take 3X 2 1/2" cartridges that is why their FEO's now check this by attempting to insert three inert rounds on any renewal or visit.
 
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I think the hint is In there... "conventional size cartridges". I have never seen anyone using less than 2 1/2" which cannot be legally loaded X3 in a fixed S1 magazine.

OK back to the original post... I was told by the head of CSP firearms licencing that some Beretta autos imported in to the UK can take 3X 2 1/2" cartridges that is why their FEO's now check this by attempting to insert three inert rounds on any renewal or visit.

I find it hard to believe that any modern self-loading or pump-action guns are proofed for 65mm/2.5" cartridges.
If there were guns so proofed, and their magazines would accept three 2.5" cartridges, then under HO Guidance, the police would be correct in their judgement that these were S1 guns.

However it seems according to the evidence quoted in this thread by better-informed folk than I, that a gun proofed for 70mm/2.75" cartridges or longer would fall under S1 only if the magazine would accept more than two cartridges of the length for which the gun was proofed.

Have I got that right?
 
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