new underlever .444 or 45-70?

multiman

Well-Known Member
Got a slot for a 45-70 to fill but I have been offered a .444 for a good price with brass and dies. What are your thoughts on .444 vs a 45-70?
Will be using on the range as well as boar.
 
Either will do but the .45-70 has the better line of bullets on the heavier end. The .444 however, lets you use pistol bullets. If you like the gun....~Muir
 
.444 Marlin is great BUT won't shoot lead cast boolits over 1600fps out of a Micro-groove barrel. I've been looking for a Marlin .444 (or 45/70) with a Ballard rifling for ages.
I'm selling my Marlin 30/30 because of the Micro-groove rifling causing inaccuracy at around 2000fps.
 
I don't have a copy of Cartridges of the World to hand...but here goes anyway....

If you EVER think that you might want to take any deer with it then, of course, the 444 scores on the velocity AND muzzle energy figures over the 45 70 such that it is "just" deer legal in both north and south of the border with some bullet weights.

However the 45 70 has it in terms of extreme bullet weight. Nevertheless some US manufacturers do make jacketed bullets for these 44 magnum and 444 Marlin calibres in 300 grain weights.

Even so the 45 70 can, of course, use 200 grain expanding bullets meant for the 45 ACP and in true rifle bullets it starts at 350 grains.

So my advice would be to look at the 45 70 and perhaps discount the 444 Marlin. OTOH why not get a variation to acquire BOTH a 444 Marlin AND a 45 70 and see how that 444 Marlin peforms in practice whilst still looking for a 45 70?

Me? if the price is right I'd take the NOW AVAILABLE 444 Marlin and yet still keep looking for the 45 70.
 
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I don't have a copy of Cartridges of the World to hand...but here goes anyway....

If you EVER think that you might want to take any deer with it then, of course, the 444 scores on the velocity AND muzzle energy figures over the 45 70 such that it is "just" deer legal in both north and south of the border with some bullet weights.

However the 45 70 has it in terms of extreme bullet weight. Nevertheless some US manufacturers do make jacketed bullets for these 44 magnum and 444 Marlin calibres in 300 grain weights.

Even so the 45 70 can, of course, use 200 grain expanding bullets meant for the 45 ACP and in true rifle bullets it starts at 350 grains.

So my advice would be to look at the 45 70 and perhaps discount the 444 Marlin. OTOH why not get a variation to acquire BOTH a 444 Marlin AND a 45 70 and see how that 444 Marlin peforms in practice whilst still looking for a 45 70?

Me? if the price is right I'd take the NOW AVAILABLE 444 Marlin and yet still keep looking for the 45 70.


Not if you want reliable accuracy. Most 45ACP bullets are .451" in diameter. A 250 grain bullet for the 45 Long Colt (.454-.455) might work better if you're going to dink around with the light weight stuff. I shot the .451's in my custom 98 Mauser in an attempt to get a small game load. Not very accurate.~Muir
 
If the price is right the .444 could be a good buy but I think you might be better off waiting for a .45-70 as cases are much easier to come by than .444 cases in this country. I read somewhere the other day that Marlin have stopped making rifles in .444 calibre. I don't know if that is correct and don't know if that will influence your decision at all. I think the .45-70 will be around for a long time to come.
 
Up until about two months ago I owned a 45-70 and about two dozen 444's !

Now I have maybe 14 444's and no 45-70 .

I've done a great deal of shooting with them both and as far as a hunting gun goes you'd be hard pressed to outdo the 45-70 with the 444 .

I've shot cast in the 444 from 200 grains all the way up to 420 grains .It has been my experience with the 444 once you reach 375 grains you're at the end of it for the slow 1-38 twist Micro Groove barreled guns . If one wants to ge to the next level 385-425 grainers they need the 1-20 Ballard barrel . Another thing in the Micro Groove barrels to push them hard enough to get decent accuracy one needs to water quench or use a harder alloy once they exceed 315 grains . I normally use WW's and water quench for about a 14 on the Brinn hardness scale .

Oh yeah the 45-70 !

When loading for the last of those I had I used home cast bullets from 300-550 grains and the gun handled them all very nicely .

The bottom line is this . The 45-70 is THE BETTER all around hunting round IMHO . The 444 however for me atleast is the more fun for shooting from the bench and is an excellent killer with cast bullets from 200-425 grains .

I also found the 45-70 to perform a wee bit better with jacketed then I did the 444 . Whichever you choose for shooting deer in the UK I doubt if you'll be disappointted .
Incidently for jacketed you would be hard pressed to do better then the Swift 280 grain A Frame bullet in the 444 or the Swift 350 grain A Frame in the 45-70 . Also for the 444 the old Hornady 265 Interlock and the Speer 270 grain do a bang up job .
 
If the price is right the .444 could be a good buy but I think you might be better off waiting for a .45-70 as cases are much easier to come by than .444 cases in this country. I read somewhere the other day that Marlin have stopped making rifles in .444 calibre. I don't know if that is correct and don't know if that will influence your decision at all. I think the .45-70 will be around for a long time to come.

That is 100% correct Marlin is no longer chambering for ANY of their proprietory cartrides !

This includes the ,

444 Marlin

450 Marlin

308 Marlin Express

338 Marlin Express

and last and surely not least the old pre 1900 25-36 Marlin !

Owned them all and shot them all . Now I'm down to just the 444 .
 
.444 Marlin is great BUT won't shoot lead cast boolits over 1600fps out of a Micro-groove barrel. I've been looking for a Marlin .444 (or 45/70) with a Ballard rifling for ages.
I'm selling my Marlin 30/30 because of the Micro-groove rifling causing inaccuracy at around 2000fps.

Size your lead bullets at .432" and they'll do fine in the Micro groove 444 I have 11 or so with the Micro Groove barrel and they all handle bullets up to 375 grains cast with decent hunting accuracy .In the Micro Groove air cooled ww's sized at .432" will do fine up to 310-315 grains after that you need to water quench the WW alloy or use something harder . To get the bullets to shoot well in a Micro Groove I've also found you need to push them kinda hard .

Your 30-30 may need larger bullets also . When I was capaigning several of them in Lever Silhouette matches I shot both Micro and Ballard and both handled bullets up to 180 grains cast just fine at about 2000-2200 FPS . With these I shot aircooled wheelweights sized in a .312" die . The Lyman 311041 , the RCBS 30-150 , the RCBS 30-180 and the Ranch Dog 311-165GC all shot nicely in my 30-30's !
 
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You can also down load the .444 to shoot on our indoor range wich helps for practicing. if i was you i would buy a 45-70 just so that there were more .444s to buy for me:rofl:
 
For what it is worth here in Geneva and a stones throw over the boarder in France you see far more .444 Marlins being sold than you do .45-70s.

Whatever you choose enjoy your shooting.

Scrummy
 
For what it is worth here in Geneva and a stones throw over the boarder in France you see far more .444 Marlins being sold than you do .45-70s.

Whatever you choose enjoy your shooting.

Scrummy

Indeed so and a good many european gunmakers have chambered double rifles in .444 marlin over the years. I don't think they bothered with doing the same for .45-70 because of the confusion over cartridges loaded to the older lower pressure standards that won't achieve the desired energy levels required.

Downloading the .444 for use on indoor pistol ranges is an interesting point reiver as not all clubs allow this unfortunately. Also the use of downloaded rifle ammunition isn't permitted by the NRA either on its ranges or in gallery rifle competitions.
 
Indeed so and a good many european gunmakers have chambered double rifles in .444 marlin over the years. I don't think they bothered with doing the same for .45-70 because of the confusion over cartridges loaded to the older lower pressure standards that won't achieve the desired energy levels required.

Downloading the .444 for use on indoor pistol ranges is an interesting point reiver as not all clubs allow this unfortunately. Also the use of downloaded rifle ammunition isn't permitted by the NRA either on its ranges or in gallery rifle competitions.

8x57
you are correct on both these points about the .444 but you can use downloaded ammo on our club indoor range for practice. I also use Fmj bullets in my .444 on Mod ranges with full power loads for practice .
I also think that any one wanting a 45-70 or .444 should try to shoot one with full power ammo before they buy ,True there is a lot of energy with both but this all takes a bit of handling and a lot practice to get them to shoot well at live targets
Both calibers will kill boar all day long if you can .
I just happen to like the .444 and it will kill any thing in Europe that the 45-70 will. so you just have to pay your money and take your pick
I will say this though the .444 will shoot flater and faster than a 45-70 , my .444 pig hunting load is doing around 2270 fps with a 265gr Interlock :evil:

Bob.
 
For what it is worth here in Geneva and a stones throw over the boarder in France you see far more .444 Marlins being sold than you do .45-70s.

Whatever you choose enjoy your shooting.

Scrummy

Is that because of the military cartridge prohibition?~Muir
 
Multiply the max bullet weight for .444 by two, No piggie will walk away from that!:D

Yes is does but at a lot slower speed a 405gr jacketed bullet will leave the barrel of a 95 lever action at 1750-1800fps max lee book load and with a trajectory of a 2" mortar and the recoill to match. a 500 gr will be doing around 1300 -1400fps .
Thats why they brought out the 450 marlin to drive those big heavy bullets at a faster pace but to stop people blowing up there guns even then the 300gr .45 the 450 is doing the same speed as a 265 gr.444 so not that bigger differance.
 
Yes is does but at a lot slower speed a 405gr jacketed bullet will leave the barrel of a 95 lever action at 1750-1800fps max lee book load and with a trajectory of a 2" mortar and the recoill to match. a 500 gr will be doing around 1300 -1400fps .
Thats why they brought out the 450 marlin to drive those big heavy bullets at a faster pace but to stop people blowing up there guns even then the 300gr .45 the 450 is doing the same speed as a 265 gr.444 so not that bigger differance.

Nobody "bought out" the 450 Marlin. If they had, Marlin would still be making it. Trajectory? All of these pea shooter have trajectories of lobbed bricks when compared to hi intensity bottle necked rounds and out their customary hunting ranges of 0-150 yards, you'd better learn what that trajectory is. The longer 45-70 bullets will carry more energy at longer ranges. Nothing slows down as fast as a bullet as big around as it is long, so the light bullet/more speed thing needs to be balanced to the use. I had custom 444's with 1-18" twist barrels that I shot 465 grain bullets from and they were accurate killers but you got more speed from the 45-70 with bullets of the same weight and consequently, more energy.

BTW: If one of you guys really wants to get some fun out of a .444, try making one up on a No4 Lee Enfield or a Pattern 14 action. You can melt a little brass while making vapor trails...~Muir
 
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