.375 H&H conditions

deerstalker.308

Well-Known Member
I've just received my FAC back after a renewall......
I already have .308 and other calibers on an open ticket, but had asked for .375 on this application, something a bit different for boar on the continent, and if budgets allow, who knows, maybe Africa.
I talked through with the FEO about it, and we agreed on the wording needed for the application, which went along the lines of, 'for use over seas, and on large deer species in the UK as per conditions of my open certificate......'

I was pleased to see that my request was granted, but the conditions for it are as follow:

'The 375 H&H rifle shall be carried when proceeding to or returning from a port of embarkation and may be zeroed with non expanding ammunition in Great Britain on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim.'

Is this common place? Surely you would want to be able to become familiar with a rifle through frequent use, and with the ammo you intend to use it with? I don't want a gun for range purposes, I want one I can use! There isn't much point in me zeroing with one type of ammo, and then using expanding ammo which will no doubt have a different POI when I finally get to use it on something overseas...... :rolleyes: I've asked for it to be changed, but I won't hold my breath....
 
Mine says similar but theirs a second condition stating i can use it for all deer in this country and can therefore zero it as per usual conditions on land i have permission with regards expanding ammo, don't have my license so cant give you exact wording not many ranges let you use that size calibre anyway or not near me

If you were also granted it for deer then you can zero it just the same as your other rifles as per normal conditions on an open ticket
 
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i have similar on my 300, i think its just to cover all events if you have deer named on your quarry list you can use it for that and if you want to use it on a proper range then non expanding has been put on the other is just so you have insurance but others might have a different view but thats how i interpret it, atb wayne
 
It sounds a though there's been a clerical oversight, and they've just defaulted to what is apparently a standard (if rather bizarre) condition for heavy rifles for overseas use.

I'd drop the FEO a line and explain that, given your discussion and agreement with him, there appears to have been a clerical error on your FAC.
Then see what he says.

There is another thread on this sort of condition on a .375, which might be of tangential interest:
http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php/42264-Another-condition-question?
 
Hi
Interesting - I'm waiting for my renewal to come back. My current one says deer & boar in UK but not use abroad............Doesnt say larger deer - just deer so even Muntjac.

Hmmmmm...

L
 
No, that's not good enough. Needs to have as well as on land where you have permission to shoot so you can zero too not just ranges because that restricts you to specific 'range' days that may not fit your personal timetable. You need to be able to be provided with ammo at your destination too, so if you can't get ammo provided the they have to allow you with expanding ammo too even if it's for only abroad and not uk quarry.

Send the FAC back, you must be able to test and zero when you choose and not on the day in the month you can make a range day that may be bad weather. As soon as you've booked your hunting trip confirm in writing if ammo won't be available, most european destinations privvi might be be but if it's Bulgaria it's maybe not so easy to get so you need to be able to get here if that's the case and take it over.

They told me initially I could arrange through an RFD to send expanding ammo out to a hunting destination. They got a short don't be silly 'do you think I'm messing about with exporting ammo' letter from my RFD.

The key words for expanding ammo that I was told to put down on my variation after Bulgaria was for 'load development and testing to ensure consistency'. There's provision in the guidance for that.
 
As has been pointed out they have given you one of the standard overseas use condition. I copy them below.
I would do as suggested and write to your feo explaining the error.
5. Overseas Use

• The *calibre RIFLE shall be carried only
when proceeding to or returning from a
port of embarkation. It shall not be fired
in Great Britain.

or
• The *calibre RIFLE and ammunition shall
be carried when proceeding to or returning
from a port of embarkation and may be
zeroed with non-expanding ammunition in
Great Britain on ranges where a safety
certificate for that class of firearm has
been issued by the Ministry of Defence.
 
I've just received my FAC back after a renewall......
I already have .308 and other calibers on an open ticket, but had asked for .375 on this application, something a bit different for boar on the continent, and if budgets allow, who knows, maybe Africa.
I talked through with the FEO about it, and we agreed on the wording needed for the application, which went along the lines of, 'for use over seas, and on large deer species in the UK as per conditions of my open certificate......'

I was pleased to see that my request was granted, but the conditions for it are as follow:

'The 375 H&H rifle shall be carried when proceeding to or returning from a port of embarkation and may be zeroed with non expanding ammunition in Great Britain on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim.'

Is this common place? Surely you would want to be able to become familiar with a rifle through frequent use, and with the ammo you intend to use it with? I don't want a gun for range purposes, I want one I can use! There isn't much point in me zeroing with one type of ammo, and then using expanding ammo which will no doubt have a different POI when I finally get to use it on something overseas...... :rolleyes: I've asked for it to be changed, but I won't hold my breath....

Well, if you think the "Enquiry" in Firearms Enquiry Officer means they are there for you to enquire of, this is exactly what you can expect to happen.

When you fill in an application you are not "asking" for an FAC you are telling the licensing office the answers to the questions asked, i.e. providing the requisite information, that they may in turn fulfill their obligations and so long as you are fit and proper with good reason allow them to provide you with (grant) your FAC.

They (the FEO's) are the ones making the enquiries. They are not there to provide answers. However, it seems many will, but in such varied and arbitrary fashion that you'd really be best not to ask or you can wind up in a muddle like our OP. If you need help providing the answers required of you go to someone qualified who has rightfully made it part of their job to provide such help e.g. a shooting organisation
 
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As has been pointed out they have given you one of the standard overseas use condition. I copy them below.
I would do as suggested and write to your feo explaining the error.
5. Overseas Use

• The *calibre RIFLE shall be carried only
when proceeding to or returning from a
port of embarkation. It shall not be fired
in Great Britain.

or
• The *calibre RIFLE and ammunition shall
be carried when proceeding to or returning
from a port of embarkation and may be
zeroed with non-expanding ammunition in
Great Britain on ranges where a safety
certificate for that class of firearm has
been issued by the Ministry of Defence.

The bizarre thing about both these conditions, assuming that we take it as read that you are allowed to do with a rifle only what the conditions say, is that you wouldn't even be able to take the rifle home from the gunsmiths, let alone carry it out of your house to take it for repair or adjustment:
nor, in the case of the second condition, would you be allowed to carry it to a range to actually do the zeroing they've so graciously permitted; unless presumably that journey was the first part of your trip to the port of embarkation, or a stop-off on the way home.

It has been pointed out to me that this interpretation is absurdly literal, but are we not enjoined to regard the other discretionary conditions (other than these, presumably) in just such a fashion?
 
Dalua

You are correct. The wording of those conditions are specific as to where the firearm may be carried. The only ambiguity is the use of the word "only" in the first condition which is omitted from the second.
Quite ludicrous.
 
Mine says similar but theirs a second condition stating i can use it for all deer in this country and can therefore zero it as per usual conditions on land i have permission with regards expanding ammo, don't have my license so cant give you exact wording

Might be worthwhile checking the exact wording because the two conditions might be contradictory. Sounds as if the first one, 'carried to port of embarkation etc. etc.', might be redundant anyway, so maybe worth getting it removed?
 
And the response to my email:..........I can't post it due to Suffolk constabularies email disclaimer, but the gist is, no, no and more no, sorry.
Ah well, it remains on my license as a free 1 for 1 variation for another calibre, and perhaps one they might permit me more freedom to use in the UK as well. Got to love our laws.
 
Did you quote the relevant section of the HO Guidance to them:

13.35 The police will wish to be satisfied that
an applicant has genuine intentions to use
such rifles abroad, though such visits may be
infrequent. Due to the terms of section 9 of
the 1997 Act, expanding ammunition may not
be authorised in connection with use abroad.
Zeroing with non-expanding ammunition may
be permitted in the UK providing a suitable
range or land is available. Those who homeload
their non-expanding ammunition for
such zeroing will also need to test and
chronograph it. Some rifles intended for
antelope and other Plains Game may also
be suitable for deer, boar or other quarry
shooting in this country. Calibres such as
the .375 (9.5mm) are at the lower end of
those suitable for shooting “dangerous game”
but may, once initial “good reason” has been
established, also be used for shooting the
larger deer species in Britain.
Expanding
ammunition may also be authorised for an
applicant whose certificate allows for the rifle
also to be used for shooting deer in Britain.

Maybe try it from a different angle and ask them to explain why they cannot comply with the HO Guidance?
 
I've just emailed them back with the above quote, we will see what comes of it, I have a feeling I can guess though :doh:
In the context of the para Orion's quoted, they really shouldn't be giving you no, no and more no without some fairly plausible explanation.

I hope it works out well.
 
Indeed, however, telling the law what the law is (or HO guidlines if you prefer) might have the affect of putting their backs up somewhat, I did ask them whether they would prefer to issue me with a 9.3x62 instead..... we shall see, all part of the fun of being a legal law obiding citizen 'ey!
 
Indeed, however, telling the law what the law is (or HO guidlines if you prefer) might have the affect of putting their backs up somewhat...

Well, to be fair, you are not telling then the law (or the Guidance). They are very familliar with both law and Guidance.

All you're doing is asking them politely for the specific reasons for denying you something that seems unambiguously to be approved in the HO Guidance. After all, they must have a good reason for doing so, must they not?

If this question is asked of them (preferably, in fact, the FLD Manager) in a suitably polite letter, either they will realise that they have missed this condition off by reason of a clerical error, which will be corrected forthwith; or they will tell you what exactly it is about you that makes them unwilling to allow you to discharge a .375 at deer in the UK.

If the former, hurrah. If the latter, and it holds water, then the show's over.
However, if the latter and it simply doesn't wash, then write again, to FLD Manager and perhaps copy to CC, questioning politely their reasoning.

That's what I'd do, anyhow.
 
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I have already got a 375 for use abroad, the usual conditions re transport to and from the port of embarcation and permission to zero with solids in Great Britain. It is on my European Firearms Pass as well as my FAC.

I wrote last week requesting conditioning it for use in Great Britain for boar, large deer and other lawful quarry and perission for expanding ammunition. I cited section 13.35 of the HO guidance in my letter ( thanks Orion ).

I am quite hopeful as I am following the procedure I used to get my 9.3 x 62 for use in Great Britain. Will keep you posted.
 
Good luck Vigilaire, (and deerstalker.308 of course). :thumb:

Small point, but although it mentions 'large deer' in the Guidance I wouldn't personally mention it to the FLD other than in a direct quotation. Thereafter I'd stick to just 'deer' simply because it is a legal calibre/cartridge under the Deer Act(s) and there would be no legal reason why it couldn't be lawfully employed on all UK deer species. Keep mentioning 'large deer' and it could create confusion if they try and classify what that might actually be - is a large fallow a 'large deer' but a small sika not? As we all know, it's all about satisfying the minimum requirements to ensure legislation is met or a clean kill made - and there's no such thing as 'overkill' is there? :D
 
A lot of experienced safari hunters swear by the 375 as the best all rounder for literally any game that you could mention. On small antelope like duiker (muntjac sized) it leaves very little meat damage as it is travelling relatively slow - might be worth bringing this one up to the FEO as a back up plan!
 
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