1-4-1 Variation Wording.

EMcC

Well-Known Member
Can anybody remember the time when to apply for a 1 for 1 variation the wording used to state ' Authorised to acquire +++ calibre on disposal of +++++calibre' or 'On disposal of +++calibre authorised to acquire +++++calibre'
Or are there any firearms departments still using it ?
By using that variation the firearms office would cut down on some of their work in that such wording would allow a part ex to take place and on notification one entry on completion.
As it is now, in my area, I have to dispose of one calibre, submit my FC to notify of disposal and apply for a new calibre, then when the new calibre is acquired send the FC in again for up dating.
 

reiver

Well-Known Member
I have had my fac for 30+ years and i have always had to sell /remove a firearm from my fac to get another for a one for one variation as that is what a a 1 for 1 is !

Reiver
 

EMcC

Well-Known Member
Some time ago I remember having a variation put on my FC stating ' The holder of this FC is authorised, on disposal of Firearm Serial No xyz, to acquire a firearm of XYX calibre'
This enabled me to travel half way 'up country' to do a part exchange with an RFD and on return just notify my FAL dept of the transaction.
Should such a similar opportunity arrive today I would have to travel 'up country' to dispose of my Rifle, notify my FAL dept and ask for a 1 4 1 variation and once obtained travel back 'up country' to collect my new rifle and on return home notify my FAL dept.
A bit long winded I think.
 

smullery

Well-Known Member
Can anybody remember the time when to apply for a 1 for 1 variation the wording used to state ' Authorised to acquire +++ calibre on disposal of +++++calibre' or 'On disposal of +++calibre authorised to acquire +++++calibre'
Or are there any firearms departments still using it ?
By using that variation the firearms office would cut down on some of their work in that such wording would allow a part ex to take place and on notification one entry on completion.
As it is now, in my area, I have to dispose of one calibre, submit my FC to notify of disposal and apply for a new calibre, then when the new calibre is acquired send the FC in again for up dating.

Eddy,

When you acquire a new rifle you do not “need” to send your FAC in, you and the seller merely need to inform. Last two rifles I bought were only entered on my FAC by seller. Still like that at renewal. Your Force may choose to ask you to send in for reprinting but that will be a quicky. Database is King.

Now, should you want to take them out of the U.K. to, say hunt Boar, then of course you would need a reprint of your FAC. It is you that is then clogging the system on that occasion, not them

Stan
 

EMcC

Well-Known Member
I know you do not have to send the FC in to inform them of a new acquisition but you need to send it in to get the variation to acquire anything new in the first place.
You would have to send it in to notify of a sale when applying for the 1-4-1 variation to be entered on your FC.
Once on the FC you would then have to go back to the RFD that you want to get your new item from.
The wording from some time ago would have enabled me to go to an RFD once and dispose of the old and acquire the new all in one trip.
Notification of the transaction, both disposal and acquisition could be done by e mail so no more trips.
 

Sinistral

Well-Known Member
I know you do not have to send the FC in to inform them of a new acquisition but you need to send it in to get the variation to acquire anything new in the first place.
You would have to send it in to notify of a sale when applying for the 1-4-1 variation to be entered on your FC.
Once on the FC you would then have to go back to the RFD that you want to get your new item from.
The wording from some time ago would have enabled me to go to an RFD once and dispose of the old and acquire the new all in one trip.
Notification of the transaction, both disposal and acquisition could be done by e mail so no more trips.

I think your memory is playing tricks on you. AFAIK there’s never been a new authorisation granted (vacant slot) conditional on the disposal of a firearm which is still listed on the FAC.

There is an option under Section 7(1) to apply for a temporary permit [Form 111] to hold the previous rifle (as and when) you send in your FAC to apply for a new authority. Then you hold an FAC varied for the new rifle (minus the old rifle) & a permit to possess the old rifle pending disposal.

Normally the S7 Permit (111) is time limited & the firearm listed on it it can’t be fired. You have to produce it to the RFD and return it to Licensing. Both parties have to notify the new firearm but there’s no need to send the varied FAC back.

Sorry if the firearms licensing regime is inconvenient, but by all means see how helpful Wiltshire feels about helping you out as a special case. Blaser owners deserve no less.;)
 
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8x57

Distinguished Member
Can anybody remember the time when to apply for a 1 for 1 variation the wording used to state ' Authorised to acquire +++ calibre on disposal of +++++calibre' or 'On disposal of +++calibre authorised to acquire +++++calibre'
Or are there any firearms departments still using it ?
By using that variation the firearms office would cut down on some of their work in that such wording would allow a part ex to take place and on notification one entry on completion.
As it is now, in my area, I have to dispose of one calibre, submit my FC to notify of disposal and apply for a new calibre, then when the new calibre is acquired send the FC in again for up dating.

I can remember when some forces used to issue such authorities Eddi but it was a long time ago. I'm fairly sure that they were instructed not to do so by the Home Office because it wasn't strictly in accordance with the Firearms Acts.
At around about the same time I believe that instructions were also issued not to issue temporary permits for the retention of one firearm while you purchased its replacement.
It would appear that some forces were being too helpful and accommodating.

Another practise that was apparently stopped at about the same time was authority to acquire wording on firearms certificates that used the words either/or. For example "authorised to acquire either one .222 calibre rifle or one .223 calibre rifle or one .22-250 calibre rifle".
 

EMcC

Well-Known Member
It was a long time ago and it was also at the time when an FC was granted for a .22 calibre rifle and that covered .22 Hornet, .222 and possibly the 22.250 although I don't remember the 22.250 or the .22 magnum being available or common at the time.
It was also at the time when the FC was issued by a Police Officer not a Police worker, as far as I know they didn't have dedicated sections of the Police Force dealing with FC's.
 
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VSS

Well-Known Member
I think your memory is playing tricks on you. AFAIK there’s never been a new authorisation granted (vacant slot) conditional on the disposal of a firearm which is still listed on the FAC.

There is an option under Section 7(1) to apply for a temporary permit [Form 111] to hold the previous rifle (as and when) you send in your FAC to apply for a new authority. Then you hold an FAC varied for the new rifle (minus the old rifle) & a permit to possess the old rifle pending disposal.

Normally the S7 Permit (111) is time limited & the firearm listed on it it can’t be fired. You have to produce it to the RFD and return it to Licensing. Both parties have to notify the new firearm but there’s no need to send the varied FAC back.

Sorry if the firearms licensing regime is inconvenient, but by all means see how helpful Wiltshire feels about helping you out as a special case. Blaser owners deserve no less.;)

A section 7 permit can be worded to allow you to fire the rifle. My daughter got a section 7 in order to use my rifle to do her DSC1, and the wording said "for zeroing and for all purposes in connection with the DSC1 course".
(She is under 17 and therefore couldn't use the estate rifle exemption, and didn't have her own deer legal calibre at the time.)
 
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8x57

Distinguished Member
A section 7 permit can be worded to allow you to fire the rifle. My daughter got a section 7 in order to use my rifle to do her DSC1, and the wording said "for zeroing and for all purposes in connection with the DSC1 course".
(She is under 17 and therefore couldn't use the estate rifle exemption, and didn't have her own deer legal calibre at the time.)

How very helpful and accommodating of North Wales police to issue such a permit to your daughter for that purpose, but I wonder if they would do so again in a similar situation. I think possibly that they have made an error in doing so.

It's my understanding from what I have read elsewhere that the situations where permits can be issued is actually very limited and this wouldn't have been one of those permitted situations. It's not uncommon for forces to unknowingly overstep the mark in an attempt to be helpful without realising it. For example I know of one rifle club locally that was issued a certificate to purchase a long barrelled revolver some years ago. Unfortunately due to the peculiarities of the law clubs aren't permitted to possess LBRs, Section 1 shotguns or LBPs (long barrelled pistols). Some time later they realised their mistake and rather sheepishly asked for the certificate back for amendment.

The situation that you described with the DSC1 course and a young person who doesn't hold a FAC is where college/school based training providers and BASC/BDS have an advantage in law. Both the BDS and BASC have Home Office approved clubs status I believe, and schools and colleges also can take advantage of certain exemptions that allow unlicensed persons access to firearms and ammunition.
 

Sinistral

Well-Known Member
How very helpful and accommodating of North Wales police to issue such a permit to your daughter for that purpose, but I wonder if they would do so again in a similar situation. I think possibly that they have made an error in doing so.

It's my understanding from what I have read elsewhere that the situations where permits can be issued is actually very limited and this wouldn't have been one of those permitted situations.
That’s my understanding too, Mike.

Checking the Home Office Guidance for a link is no help as it only lists the titles of the statutory Firearms Forms without showing their format. This is just my attempt to explain & describe what a temporary permit (Form 111) is.

The main use of it is to give relatives of the deceased, or executors reasonable time to dispose of firearms & ammunition. This is standard stationery printed by H.M.S.O. headed “Permit to Possess a Firearm or Ammunitionbut each permit is serially-numbered.

As it’s issued under Section 7 it can not permit Use of any Firearms listed on it. The Chief Officer of Police is bound by its’ terms just like the holder & can not vary the pre-printed wording which is:-

The holder of this permit is hereby permitted to have in his possession, (but not to purchase or acquire) the firearms and/or ammunition specified below, on the terms that the holder shall:

[5 pre-printed Conditions follow]
Under Conditions 1-3 (which I’ve paraphrased) the holder has to give details of their disposal/notify any theft or loss/and keep them secure. These are similar to a Firearms Certificate.
Condition 4 requires return of the permit on or before its’ Expiry Date.
Condition 5 is “The firearms to which this permit relates are not to be fired

 

oowee

Well-Known Member
Not sure if i am missing something here? I recently enquired how best to do this with Avon and Somerset, where the 1 for 1 approval time is not the shortest and i did not want to be without the rifle. I was told to ask for the additional slot first (reason to maintain t a rifle during transition) and i would get the slot allowing the exchange.
 

jcampbellsmith

Well-Known Member
I can. I have a .pdf copy of an old certificate that has a lot of words on it including -

O(8) THE AUTHORITY TO PURCHASE THIS WEAPON IS SUBJECT TO THE CONDITION THAT THE .260 RIFLE SERIAL NUMBER XXXXXX IS DISPOSED OF PRIOR TO SUCH AN ACQUISITION.

Regards

JCS
 

VSS

Well-Known Member
That’s my understanding too, Mike.

Checking the Home Office Guidance for a link is no help as it only lists the titles of the statutory Firearms Forms without showing their format. This is just my attempt to explain & describe what a temporary permit (Form 111) is.

The main use of it is to give relatives of the deceased, or executors reasonable time to dispose of firearms & ammunition. This is standard stationery printed by H.M.S.O. headed “Permit to Possess a Firearm or Ammunitionbut each permit is serially-numbered.

As it’s issued under Section 7 it can not permit Use of any Firearms listed on it. The Chief Officer of Police is bound by its’ terms just like the holder & can not vary the pre-printed wording which is:-

The holder of this permit is hereby permitted to have in his possession, (but not to purchase or acquire) the firearms and/or ammunition specified below, on the terms that the holder shall:

[5 pre-printed Conditions follow]
Under Conditions 1-3 (which I’ve paraphrased) the holder has to give details of their disposal/notify any theft or loss/and keep them secure. These are similar to a Firearms Certificate.
Condition 4 requires return of the permit on or before its’ Expiry Date.
Condition 5 is “The firearms to which this permit relates are not to be fired


Well that wording obviously isn't pre- printed!
There are only 3 conditions on my daughter's permit. The first relates to signing it, the second relates to theft, loss or destruction, and the third relates to the DSC1 course, so clearly it can be tailored to suit specific circumstances at the discretion of the issuing chief officer.

(Neither is there any condition to return it upon expiry - she still has it as a "souvenir" of her DSC1 course (in addition to her DSC1 certificate, I hasten to add!), although it expired a couple of years ago.)
 
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8x57

Distinguished Member
Not sure if i am missing something here? I recently enquired how best to do this with Avon and Somerset, where the 1 for 1 approval time is not the shortest and i did not want to be without the rifle. I was told to ask for the additional slot first (reason to maintain t a rifle during transition) and i would get the slot allowing the exchange.

They obviously pointed out to you that you weren't applying for a 1-4-1 (free of charge), and to make an application (fee involved) to hold an additional rifle.
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
Well that wording obviously isn't pre- printed!
There are only 3 conditions on my daughter's permit. The first relates to signing it, the second relates to theft, loss or destruction, and the third relates to the DSC1 course, so clearly it can be tailored to suit specific circumstances at the discretion of the issuing chief officer.

(Neither is there any condition to return it upon expiry - she still has it as a "souvenir" of her DSC1 course (in addition to her DSC1 certificate, I hasten to add!), although it expired a couple of years ago.)

Both of the temporary permits that have been issued to me have had to be returned on expiry or when the firearms concerned were disposed of.
I know that permits should only be valid for two months at a time but on one occasion they actually issued a permit that was valid for twelve months?
 
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oowee

Well-Known Member
Ah I see now the £20 :doh:. Seems better than the delay. About three months here :confused:
They obviously pointed out to you that you weren't applying for a 1-4-1 (free of charge), and to make an application (fee involved) to hold an additional rifle.
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
Sorry to disappoint you oowee but it won't make any difference to the delay if its one you have to pay for or a variation free of charge.
 

Sinistral

Well-Known Member
Well that wording obviously isn't pre- printed!
There are only 3 conditions on my daughter's permit. The first relates to signing it, the second relates to theft, loss or destruction, and the third relates to the DSC1 course, so clearly it can be tailored to suit specific circumstances at the discretion of the issuing chief officer.

(Neither is there any condition to return it upon expiry - she still has it as a "souvenir" of her DSC1 course (in addition to her DSC1 certificate, I hasten to add!), although it expired a couple of years ago.)
You can't be referring to the statutory Form 111 then.
Redact the ID's & post it - if you're certain.:eek:
 
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