1 in 16 Twist

[Pioden222]

I've a old bsa 222 which has a 1-16 twist rate barrel.
I've found this rifle will not shoot any bullet with a boat tail and any bullet which is long and pointy.
I have achieved decent groups with 40gr flat based bullets but I would like to have a 50gr load for the rifle as it's nearly always windy here.
I've tried 50gr Speer TNT hp as they have a flat base and are not to long with so so results.
Does anyone know of a decent short hp or bt flat based 50gr bullet I could try in this 222?
A short bullet is very important it seems and a flat base.
The longest bullet I have tried are 52gr speer bthp. My five shot group covered a 800 x 800mm cardboard sheet and went through slightly sideways. 50gr sierra blitzking gave a similar result.
My 20 bore patterns tighter.
Any guesses or advice will be appreciated.
Ps. I've been using N133 powder

 

[Woodsmoke]

These any use to you? I've used these PPU to good effect in my .223 before I decided to revert to factory rounds (purely and simply because I didn't have the free time to reload for all my rifles)

PPU Bullets - .224 50G SP - 1967spud Reloading Supplies Ltd

All prices per 100 no.

www.1967spud.com

 

[Pioden222]

I've got some of them to try thanks. I'm not sure they are going to be short enough in this barrel.

 

[cjs66]

Try the Sierra Blitz 50g soft point, they’re a stubby little flat base bullet and shoot fantastic through mine, though mine is a 1-14. Worth a try.
Good luck.

cjs

 

[Lancaster]

You could split the difference and try 45gn soft points or Speer also do a 50gn FB SP

 

[Smellydog]

Increasing velocity will sometimes stabilise a slower twist. 222 data is held low for some weaker actions sake. Your rifle is not a weak action.
My 222 cf2 and other 222 rifles were always plus 2gns over book max with medium range of powders for the caliber.
The speer tnt is a good bullet in 222.

 

[Pioden222]

Thanks for the ideas.
I've run the 45gr sierra spt through my other bsa 222 and even though they are meant for a faster shooting cartridge they were very explosive if they hit a rib or other bone. Not tried the 50gr blitz so I will check out the length of them and the speer 50gr hp.
On the velocity front I'm using n130 and n133 and there's a little room left in the case so I will try the tnt again as there's no pressure signs with the max given load.
I'm getting one and a half to 3 inch groups with them at 100yds outside on a really rubbish rest but it's the best I can do in the tourist season. Under an inch groups with 40gr blitzking.
Seating depth really seems to be an issue with this rifle too.
I've taken a 40gr nosler Armageddon hp load from a mate which shoots quite well in my rifle and I've tried to get the OAL the same with the 50gn tnt which is hard as the tnt are not uniform in length.
I've had to seat the bullets twice, once with the die done up as tight as it will go and then again with the seating rod upside down to get the extra few thousand of an inch.
The tnt loads I tried like this were all better than the maximum depth seated version and one gave three touching with two close together but an inch away from the group.
Is there a minimum/maximum seating depth for a cartridge?
I really don't know as I'm quite new to the reloading.
Is there an easier way to seat a bullet deeper than doing it twice like I've had to do?
Is it dangerous seating to deeply?
Any suggestions and advice welcomed.

 

[Lancaster]

Thanks for the ideas.
I've run the 45gr sierra spt through my other bsa 222 and even though they are meant for a faster shooting cartridge they were very explosive if they hit a rib or other bone. Not tried the 50gr blitz so I will check out the length of them and the speer 50gr hp.
On the velocity front I'm using n130 and n133 and there's a little room left in the case so I will try the tnt again as there's no pressure signs with the max given load.
I'm getting one and a half to 3 inch groups with them at 100yds outside on a really rubbish rest but it's the best I can do in the tourist season. Under an inch groups with 40gr blitzking.
Seating depth really seems to be an issue with this rifle too.
I've taken a 40gr nosler Armageddon hp load from a mate which shoots quite well in my rifle and I've tried to get the OAL the same with the 50gn tnt which is hard as the tnt are not uniform in length.
I've had to seat the bullets twice, once with the die done up as tight as it will go and then again with the seating rod upside down to get the extra few thousand of an inch.
The tnt loads I tried like this were all better than the maximum depth seated version and one gave three touching with two close together but an inch away from the group.
Is there a minimum/maximum seating depth for a cartridge?
I really don't know as I'm quite new to the reloading.
Is there an easier way to seat a bullet deeper than doing it twice like I've had to do?
Is it dangerous seating to deeply?
Any suggestions and advice welcomed.

I think the 45gn were designed with a thinner jacket for a slower cartridge, i.e. Hornet so they will run faster through the .222 and be more explosive.
I don't think your seating die is set up right, you should have enough adjustment to seat pretty much any length of bullet, if you have turned the stem upside down you won't be pushing on the Ogive, but on the tip of the bullet causing deformation and possible inconsistency in your groups.
The minimum seating depth is when the bullet is jammed in the lands, not good for a hunting round as the bullet could be pulled from the case if you unload an unfired round leaving a bullet in the barrel the powder will be scattered inside the action.
There is also a possible issue due to the bullet is being forced into the barrel without having a bit of a run up causing a pressure spike.
It is also limited by the amount of free bore, there are a lot of rifles and calibres that jamming into the lands simply isn't possible.
Maximum length is the Ogive at the mouth of the neck, again not good, if the Ogive point isn't consistent there is a gap between the start of the shank and the case neck, it also means that the cartridge capacity is reduced and the pressure inside the cartridge can be high because the bullet has to travel further to escape the confines of the case with all of the pent up pressure being contained in the case.
My happy medium is to start working up loads with a bullet diameter inside the neck, so (length of case + length of bullet) - diameter of bullet = COAL
Others may disagree, but that is how I work up loads for length.

 

[Pioden222]

As I said I am quite new to the loading aspects of shooting.
I started with a Lee loader in 222 and to obtain the starting seating depth I split a case neck of a round I fired in the rifle, inserted a bullet head and loaded and then extracted the case with the bullet still intact (after a good few attempts). Using this dummy round I set the seating depth and was reasonably successful with loads I tried. I changed the seating depth when trying 50gr vmax as they were so much longer and my groups went really bad. With the Lee loader it took me a while to get back to where it was and ended up with 5/8 of an inch with 45gn sierra spt and 50gr blitzking.
I could not repeat the dummy round/split cartridge with my other 222 so was really guessing from the start.
Do I have my press seat die set to low?
I can see the rim of the cartridge but no inlet or main body brass.

 

[Lancaster]

As I said I am quite new to the loading aspects of shooting.
I started with a Lee loader in 222 and to obtain the starting seating depth I split a case neck of a round I fired in the rifle, inserted a bullet head and loaded and then extracted the case with the bullet still intact (after a good few attempts). Using this dummy round I set the seating depth and was reasonably successful with loads I tried. I changed the seating depth when trying 50gr vmax as they were so much longer and my groups went really bad. With the Lee loader it took me a while to get back to where it was and ended up with 5/8 of an inch with 45gn sierra spt and 50gr blitzking.
I could not repeat the dummy round/split cartridge with my other 222 so was really guessing from the start.
Do I have my press seat die set to low?
I can see the rim of the cartridge but no inlet or main body brass.

Great start, that is how I started reloading!
DM me and we can have a chat.

 

[Miki]

@Pioden222 becareful, reading your posts above you are making some wild assumtions and mistakes.
The length of a bullet and the spin the rifling imparts are closely linked to the stability of the bullet (not a 'bullet head' BTW) as it travels to the target.

There are several online calculators that will help you find the right bullet length to maintain accuracy and stop the bullet tumbling or gyrating off course.
I would estimate that the best choice would be a 40grain, varmint style, HP or SP FB bullet like the blitzking or VMax.

Seating depth is very important, repeatably loading to the specified COAL is really key. Using the right tools to measure this is (IMHO) neccessary.
If you load a 40gn and then (using the same powder charge/wieght) load a 50gr bullet the pressure will increase considerably. You can easily create a dangerous load doing this.

 

[Bowland blades]

its an old gun , so it could be worn out or rusted out ? Bedding problems or crown damage also likely . it really shouldnt hit side on for regular soft points of 50 or 55 . my hornet will shoot 40 v max good but i need to cut the tips off for them to mag feed 1 in 16 twist

 

[Smellydog]

My cf2 had its barrel just kissing the stock and it was very difficult to find a load.
I cleared the barrel channel out and got a free floating barrel with plenty of clearance, then things got easier.

Don't fear going over book in 222. The brass is as strong as 223. No, don't load it as 223 data but the cartridge is held back.
Like 45/70 has three levels I wish 222 Remington had two levels.
And no, I'm not a fan of pushing limits. One of my favourite 222 loads was the speer 52gn hpbt bumbling along at 2850fps.

 

[Lancaster]

its an old gun , so it could be worn out or rusted out ? Bedding problems or crown damage also likely . it really shouldnt hit side on for regular soft points of 50 or 55 . my hornet will shoot 40 v max good but i need to cut the tips off for them to mag feed 1 in 16 twist

I'm not too sure about that point, depending on bearing surface several .222 1:14 twist that I have played with have maxed out at 55gn, the Vmax 53gn bullets that I was given to try by a mate (as being absolute tack drivers in his .223 1:12 twist) were bloody awful in the 1:14 Sako that I had at that time, despite being stoked above book max.

 

[Bowland blades]

I'm not too sure about that point, depending on bearing surface several .222 1:14 twist that I have played with have maxed out at 55gn, the Vmax 53gn bullets that I was given to try by a mate (as being absolute tack drivers in his .223 1:12 twist) were bloody awful in the 1:14 Sako that I had at that time, despite being stoked above book max.

hitting sideways is a big difference to shooting poorly the only bullet i have ever found to hit sideways is a varmint grenade but thats in a lot of different rifles and its a round known to be incredibly fussy . It was hitting sideways at 50 yards and completely unable to hit an A4 sheet by design 1-16 twist bullet well within length
Possible? yeah , just doubt it !
Regardless it wants looking at bore wise and shooting with something known to be reliable 40 grn Speer spire point, 40 v max, 45 grain or 40 grain sierra softpoint. If none of them work and the bore looks fine with a scope , then its bedding issues , a damaged crown or the shooter . (hitting sideways is of course never the shooter ) . I would not over fuss about the charge any data should be good for 2" at 100 or so , refine after!
might be worth trying a different scope / mounts before disposing of it, if its still getting no place ?

 

[Pioden222]

The rifle is old and the bore isn't a pretty sight but I've had it threaded and re crowned recently as I have to use a moderator where I shoot.
40gr rounds do shoot better in this rifle and 50gr short bullets with flat bases shoot but not great. Anything longish with a boat tail is all over the place and I mean all over the place.
I have only loaded rounds to the maximum given load by vihtavouri for each weight of bullet I have used. I've stepped my loads up by .1 of a grain. I have not used any 223 load data in my 222. Most loads that shoot well in my other 222 are quite a bit short of the given maximum and 50gr loads are under 3000fps
As I have measured a box of tnt bullets and there is quite a difference in their length how do i measure overall length accurately if the bullets are seated to the same depth surely a different length will be recorded?
I have attached a picture of a recent test at 100yds using 50gr tnt seated to the depth with my Lee die as deep as it will go. I thought that the die would be made not to let a bullet to be set to deep.

There's a group of 3 shots bottom right which are 40gr and you can see the difference.
In answer to Lancaster I'm using a not particularly good phone to post on here and I cannot find the pm bit anywhere. When I do I will let you know.

 

[Pioden222]

Ps. This rifle does not like a hot barrel at all! My monarch on the other hand shoots better when you have to shoot between the waft of the heat haze from the mod.

 

[Steff]

With all the time, effort, bullets and powder you have already put into this and will be putting into it you‘d be better off to have it rebarreled with a 1:12 twist.
It‘s just a shame that you already splashed out the money to have it threaded.

 

[Pioden222]

Yeah a 1-8 or 9 .223 is looking more appealing all the time!
It wasn't much to get threaded but if I could have afforded a re barrel it would have been.
This majestic even with mod and scope lives up to its featherweight name tag. It's certainly not much to look at but if I can hit a golf ball at 100yds it will be fine for foxes and magpies, no deers around here unfortunately and it won't knacker my hip while I carry it either. My monarch is heavy.
I do like the old bsa's too.
I quite enjoy trying to find a load that works well in it but I certainly would not complain if it was a bit quicker this time round.

 

[User00040]

@Pioden222

Really really clean the thing out, with quality bronze brushes and solvent/bore polish of choice.

Did you have the barrel shortened when it was threaded?

If not, I would sugguest taking 2 inches off the muzzle end as I suspect your rifling has seen better days. Try dropping a bullet (just the projectile) down the muzzle end, tip first and see how far it goes in relative to the bearing surface.

If the bullet disappears then you have a problem!