243 or 6.5C

[Sonicdmb73]

I shoot 80gn 243 and 120gn 6.5x55.
Both excellent at stopping deer, although 6.5 is less destructive and better if windy.

I’m not dismissing the 243, I do like the chambering. A fast twist factory offering would solve many of the issues facing it re non lead bullets. However I bought a Sauer 202 in 6.5x55mm and just don’t see the need for a 243 in my cabinet. 20 Tac and 222 cover the small stuff. The 6.5 is first choice for Roe up and I have a couple of larger calibre barrels if/when the need arises.
My point though is that I would not at present recommend 243 for the same job I bought my original one for. i.e. my sole deer rifle (which is what it was back then).

Thing is Even government have legal duty in these matters , No government wants to be seen loose in court ever

You might be right. However it isn’t a ban in the sense of pistols or semi automatic rifles. They will argue that there’s ammunition available (regardless of whether it’s effective or not) so I don’t think compensation will come into it. More likely that the shooting community will stop buying the 243, which will make ammunition less likely to be stocked. And so on and so on. Till they just don’t bother stocking rifles or ammunition.
Basically “we” will talk ourselves out of owning them and self fulfill its demise.

 

[Bowland blades]

I’m not dismissing the 243, I do like the chambering. A fast twist factory offering would solve many of the issues facing it re non lead bullets. However I bought a Sauer 202 in 6.5x55mm and just don’t see the need for a 243 in my cabinet. 20 Tac and 222 cover the small stuff. The 6.5 is first choice for Roe up and I have a couple of larger calibre barrels if/when the need arises.
My point though is that I would not at present recommend 243 for the same job I bought my original one for. i.e. my sole deer rifle (which is what it was back then).

You might be right. However it isn’t a ban in the sense of pistols or semi automatic rifles. They will argue that there’s ammunition available (regardless of whether it’s effective or not) so I don’t think compensation will come into it. More likely that the shooting community will stop buying the 243, which will make ammunition less likely to be stocked. And so on and so on. Till they just don’t bother stocking rifles or ammunition.
Basically “we” will talk ourselves out of owning them and self fulfill its demise.

I can assure you that a std twist 243 win Tikka shooting 80 grain copper factory kills Red hill stags just fine! Thing is a shoot a 260 rem with 100 grain copper and it has enough energy to double shoulder some really big stags to 400 yards with a 100 grain . My mate is out there now " authorised by the Government" Killing red Stags with 80 grain just fine . You simply cannot go with weight of bullet as 1. copper like TTSX has way more weight retention than any known lead expanding ammo 2. Personally i gain 300 fps in my 100 grain copper TTSX over the speed i can push 100 grain lead.
More nations on earth allow 50 /55 grain lead than do not and many government cull teams like NZ authorise std 222 / 223 . Have you seen the size of those Forrest stags ?
Our Government did test sub 100 grain copper on real deer , they did test NV in culling it was done on Scottish forestry land .

 

[phildsmith69]

6.5CM all day long

I have heard stories of people using .243 copper and having to do humane dispatch more often than before and so upgrading to 6.5

 

[HallyButt]

I have both, pros and cons, both kill well. 6.5 gives me more confidence but is more expensive to feed, although seems to cause less meat loss. On balance if I was choosing between them, 6.5 would win.

 

[Gloucestershire.2021]

I have just had my .243 re-barrelled to a 6.5 Creedmoor, having failed to find any copper ammunition that was suitable for the .243.
The 6.5 Creedmoor shoots sub moa with Sako factory copper ammunition with no problems.

YewTree hollows 80.5gr and Nosler ETip 90gr, both copper, shot perfectly in my .243 . If I had to choose one, I’d go for YewTree. British made.

 

[jthyttin]

More nations on earth allow 50 /55 grain lead than do not

Please put some meat on this claim you use every now and then. A list of nations that a) have deer up to red size (or at least fallow / whitetail) and b) allow 22cal 50-55gr for them (I know you didn't claim 22cal now, but have previously).

 

[beenseen]

YewTree hollows 80.5gr and Nosler ETip 90gr, both copper, shot perfectly in my .243 . If I had to choose one, I’d go for YewTree. British made.

I don’t reload, so only tried the factory ammunition available in my area, none of which suited my .243.

 

[25 Sharps]

Thank you for all your inputs into this thread. I’ve read everyones comments and have decided to go for the 6.5 cm on the basis that yes a 243 would do everything I need at the moment but if cooper does come in there is a chance it won’t. Where as the 6.5 cm will regardless.

Are you planning trips to Scotland?

 

[Brighty3006]

Looking like 80 grain copper going to be legal in .243 in Scotland in November. I shot Hinds in Scotland last season with 100 grain Peregrine bullets and worked perfectly .A couple about 220 yards. I've already brought 80.5 Yew tree to see how they go on the Fallow

 

[norcan]

And don’t forget the other less fancy 6.5 that has been doing the job for a hundred years or more.
243 = supremely accurate but affected by wind and can be explosive in smaller deer.
6.5x55 = low recoil but hits hard but makes less damage than the 243. Not as pinpoint accurate as the 243 but not shabby by any standards.

Au contraire, the 6.5x55’s accuracy is match-grade.

 

[Bowland blades]

Please put some meat on this claim you use every now and then. A list of nations that a) have deer up to red size (or at least fallow / whitetail) and b) allow 22cal 50-55gr for them (I know you didn't claim 22cal now, but have previously).

Its no problem in most of the USA ( though they have state by state stuff ) like strait wall only etc , Not and issue In Australia i think ? Africa is a lot of different nations but a mate was using a 22 hornet on stuff last year Dr Ed Ashby made a habbit about the same 22 hornet on Zebra . Oh Alaska allows 223 for moose and there are more moose killed with 223 rem there than any other cartridge i belive? Perhaps because its the gun they carry after fur and meat ? Woulnt take a 223 on a moose hunt though because in a short time in country i might not close the distance on one enough . Before the deer act one of our possibly most respected stalker a person with a knighthood for his work shot red stags with a 22 hornet
its not the bullet in the barrel its the nut that holds it straight !

 

[Border]

And don’t forget the other less fancy 6.5 that has been doing the job for a hundred years or more.
243 = supremely accurate but affected by wind and can be explosive in smaller deer.
6.5x55 = low recoil but hits hard but makes less damage than the 243. Not as pinpoint accurate as the 243 but not shabby by any standards.

Thousands of Scandinavian target shooters might disagree with the last statement......

 

[Sonicdmb73]

I can assure you that a std twist 243 win Tikka shooting 80 grain copper factory kills Red hill stags just fine! Thing is a shoot a 260 rem with 100 grain copper and it has enough energy to double shoulder some really big stags to 400 yards with a 100 grain . My mate is out there now " authorised by the Government" Killing red Stags with 80 grain just fine . You simply cannot go with weight of bullet as 1. copper like TTSX has way more weight retention than any known lead expanding ammo 2. Personally i gain 300 fps in my 100 grain copper TTSX over the speed i can push 100 grain lead.
More nations on earth allow 50 /55 grain lead than do not and many government cull teams like NZ authorise std 222 / 223 . Have you seen the size of those Forrest stags ?
Our Government did test sub 100 grain copper on real deer , they did test NV in culling it was done on Scottish forestry land .

I think you are missing my point. The fact is that there’s a widely perceived problem with the 243. Namely it won’t shoot heavier non toxic bullets due to the twist rate. The fact that you can kill a stag with 80’s is immaterial unless the law changes in Scotland. So again perceived issue is won’t be deer legal post “ban”.
The 243 will most likely go out of favour and thus become obsolete. Rather than being banned out of existence by the removal of lead ammunition.

 

[homer]

I think you are missing my point. The fact is that there’s a widely perceived problem with the 243. Namely it won’t shoot heavier non toxic bullets due to the twist rate. The fact that you can kill a stag with 80’s is immaterial unless the law changes in Scotland. So again perceived issue is won’t be deer legal post “ban”.
The 243 will most likely go out of favour and thus become obsolete. Rather than being banned out of existence by the removal of lead ammunition.

The law in Scotland is changing later this year.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

The law in Scotland is changing later this year.

that’s not the only reason why people are avoiding buying it.
Just have a search on here and other shooting forums. You will find similar threads with similar posts, 243 is no good for non lead etc.
But as I said it will be the supply of rifles and ammunition that dictate its survival. It ain’t the darling starter rifle it used to be. Marketing and even a lack of ballistic understanding. Will all affect the perception of the cartridge with non lead bullets.

 

[Brighty3006]

243 in nonlead is extremely capable of killing all UK deer

 

[jthyttin]

Its no problem in most of the USA ( though they have state by state stuff ) like strait wall only etc , Not and issue In Australia i think ? Africa is a lot of different nations but a mate was using a 22 hornet on stuff last year Dr Ed Ashby made a habbit about the same 22 hornet on Zebra . Oh Alaska allows 223 for moose

OK, so you have 3 nations listed, USA, Australia and some unnamed country in Africa.

Let's see, in US they actually seem to allow 22cal centerfire for deer in about 2/3 of the states. There might be restrictions for larger species like elk (that might be better match for red). Information from several internet forums.

Regarding Australia, the situation seems to be that deer shooting was under license (?), but those restrictions have been largely removed and depending on area there have been legislation regarding minimum rules including caliber. Since the amount of different legislative units was more manageable, I tried to find official info. Wasn't an easy task, though. Tasmania has 6mm minimum and energy limit, Victoria has 243 and 270 including weight limits, New South Wales doesn't seem to have implemented limits and Queensland I couldn't find info. As a side hit, Northern Territory doesn't seem to have deer hunting and I ran out of interest regarding rest of Australia.

View - Tasmanian Legislation Online

www.legislation.tas.gov.au

Deer hunting methods

www.gma.vic.gov.au

For the unnamed African country, I take your word that since your mate used Hornet, they allow it. So out of your 3 nations, 2 are more on the "allow" than "deny" side regarding 22cal for medium and large deer.

 

[Bowland blades]

OK, so you have 3 nations listed, USA, Australia and some unnamed country in Africa.

Let's see, in US they actually seem to allow 22cal centerfire for deer in about 2/3 of the states. There might be restrictions for larger species like elk (that might be better match for red). Information from several internet forums.

Regarding Australia, the situation seems to be that deer shooting was under license (?), but those restrictions have been largely removed and depending on area there have been legislation regarding minimum rules including caliber. Since the amount of different legislative units was more manageable, I tried to find official info. Wasn't an easy task, though. Tasmania has 6mm minimum and energy limit, Victoria has 243 and 270 including weight limits, New South Wales doesn't seem to have implemented limits and Queensland I couldn't find info. As a side hit, Northern Territory doesn't seem to have deer hunting and I ran out of interest regarding rest of Australia.

View - Tasmanian Legislation Online

www.legislation.tas.gov.au

Deer hunting methods

www.gma.vic.gov.au

For the unnamed African country, I take your word that since your mate used Hornet, they allow it. So out of your 3 nations, 2 are more on the "allow" than "deny" side regarding 22cal for medium and large deer.

You seem most vociferous yet look for snippets that might possibly support your crazy rant - While ignoring all evidence that supports the case.
If you like the 30-06 so much keep using it as its legal , personally i would be looking for lighter copper tTSX or bullets that perform in a similar way i guess if there was a 110 grain tTSX ? you might well get the personal results i am relating
Still cant get the motivation for the rant though especially the morning after the night before

 

[Bowland blades]

243 in nonlead is extremely capable of killing all UK deer

Indeed ! Absolutely ! In many respects a very good choice , speed just really really seems to make the difference in copper .
A mate of mine is now shooting his 243 with 80 grain as his 270 was giving up and he is very enthusiastic about how it performs on the deer . Yes, its been authorised
Indeed i am a bit miffed because i only put a 6.5 mm on mine when the 243 barrel gave up and there was doubt about what was in the future . Too close to the 260 to get another 243 also

 

[jthyttin]

If you like the 30-06 so much keep using it as its legal

I don't have a 30-06, but I do dislike people making up incredulous "facts" to support their agenda.

So let's settle that 22cal 55gr has not been proven a legal medium/large deer cartridge in most nations.