308 vs 30-06

[captdavid]

First, I think the 30-06 is a great cartridge. It's one of the three greatest of all times, along side the 7x57 and 375 H&H. What I don't understand is why so many people consider it so much more powerful than the 308. The 30-06 is about 100fps faster at the muzzle with factory loads and 150fps with max reloads. The chart below is based on information gained from Sierra, Nosler and 308 Winchester Load Data - Nosler

Factory 165grn 308 MV 2700 energy @ 200yds 1900fpe 300yds 1600fpe
factory 165grn 30-06 MV 2800 energy @ 300yds 2000fpe 300yds 1700fpe

Max reloads are a little more in favor of the 30-06 due to differing pressure.

Max reloads 165grn 308 MV 2800 energy @ 200yds 2000fpe 300yds 1700fpe
Max reloads 165grn 30-06 MV 2950 energy @ 200yds 2300fpe 300yds 1900fpe

I've owned both, I kept the 30-06 because of 'Tradition' and the rifle, not ballistics.

capt david

 

[Greener Jim]

Max reloads are a little more in favor of the 30-06 due to differing pressure.

As you're using American data it would be worth pointing out that 308 actually has a higher SAAMI max pressure (62ksi) than 30-06 (60ksi), so if both run at 308 pressure the gap would widen a tad more.

Since the benefit of a larger case is often sited to be better use of heavy bullets I'd be interested to see if 30-06 extends it's lead when using 180-220gr bullets.

 

[geoshot]

"What I don't understand is why so many people consider it so much more powerful than the 308. "
I'm not sure many do, other than FEO's it seems.
Like you, I have a 30-06 "for the tradition and the rifle" - MV, ME or other ballistics never came into it.
I still have a .308w too of course, but mainly for plinking, though it is cleared for ALQ

 

[captdavid]

You are correct, that's why I pointed it out, but didn't explain.
I also didn't get in to the heavier bullets, as this is basically a 'deer' board.
You are also correct there also because the heavier bullets tend to take up powder space in the 308. Again, not really relative to this board, as I can't imagine anyone using a 200, 220, or for that matter a 250 grain caliber bullet on anything in Britian. Maybe with the exception of those sea monsters of those 1960s British SiFi films or the Loch Ness monster. The fact that the 30-06 does well with such a variety of bullet weights make it the great world over hunting that it is. capt david

 

[Greener Jim]

I see what you're saying but, especially since you didn't stipulate deer only, that's kind of my point.
Though of course 308 can take stuff much larger than deer, most people who want a non-magnum .308" go 30-06 if they intend on pursuing larger game on the continent or further afield, specifically for it's greater ability with heavier/longer bullets.
I think this is why it could seem that 30-06 has the reputation as much more powerful, simply because people are seen taking larger game with one so the assumption is made.
Also I would happily use 200gr on deer in the UK, in fact I've been stalking with 120gr up to 500gr.

 

[captdavid]

From my research, the 180s are about 150fps behind in some loads. Anything over 180s, the info is spotty. capt david

 

[stubear]

I did meet a guy once who asked for a .308 on his application but the FEO said "Oh no no dear boy, thats FAR too big. If you need a .30 cal then you must have a .30-06".

After maintaining a quietly impassive face and silently thinking all his Christmasses had come at once he asked why.

The FEO said "Well .308 of an inch is bigger than .3006 of an inch..."

So now he has a .30.-06.

Never mind the misunderstanding between the two loads I think the fact that they were debating over .0074 of an inch, which is about 0.2mm or the thickness of two pieces of paper, is unbelievable.

 

[captdavid]

In my one and only trip to Africa, I huntrd with a muzzle loader. It was the last of the season, and I was the only hunter. Several of the guides were there closing down the camp and enjoying sundowners. Two things I remember, they bemoaned the disappearance of the 318 WR and forget the magnums, bring a 30-06 with 200gn Partitions for plains game! capt david

 

[NewForester]

First, I think the 30-06 is a great cartridge. It's one of the three greatest of all times, along side the 7x57 and 375 H&H. What I don't understand is why so many people consider it so much more powerful than the 308. The 30-06 is about 100fps faster at the muzzle with factory loads and 150fps with max reloads. The chart below is based on information gained from Sierra, Nosler and 308 Winchester Load Data - Nosler

Factory 165grn 308 MV 2700 energy @ 200yds 1900fpe 300yds 1600fpe
factory 165grn 30-06 MV 2800 energy @ 300yds 2000fpe 300yds 1700fpe

Max reloads are a little more in favor of the 30-06 due to differing pressure.

Max reloads 165grn 308 MV 2800 energy @ 200yds 2000fpe 300yds 1700fpe
Max reloads 165grn 30-06 MV 2950 energy @ 200yds 2300fpe 300yds 1900fpe

I've owned both, I kept the 30-06 because of 'Tradition' and the rifle, not ballistics.

capt david

Changing the subject slightly, and I know that this is a deer stalking forum, but I have always wondered about a comment I have seen a few times which stated that the 308 was inherently more accurate than the 30-06 at longer ranges. That is why the 308 is used in long range competitions. (e.g. 1,000 yards)

Bearing in mind that they are so similar, is the 308 significantly more accurate at long range than the 30-06, firing the same weight bullet?

 

[Greener Jim]

In my one and only trip to Africa, I huntrd with a muzzle loader.

That's extremely cool. Which muzzleloader did you use?

 

[Targetman]

Comparing cartridges has really changed because now most of us reload we are not comparing traditional factory loadings but the opportunities cartridges offer to tailor our loads to how we use them. Both 308 and 30-06 give homeloaders a wide range of bullet types, structures and weights to select from. 30 06 has the disadvantage of needing a full length rifle action thus making for a longer heavier rifle balanced against its advantage of being able to use heavier weights. Once you may have factored in noise and recoil but the modern lightweight moderators really do a wonderful job and so the kick or crack calibres make is no longer such a limiter on what people find pleasant to use.
The use of 308 in target shooting is a product of the historical development of NRA style competitive shooting. they changed from the 303 to the 7.62 to match the military then stuck with it when the army went to 223 Most gallery ranges in the UK date from the days of the 303 and the 762 fits within the safety regulations. Use in competition has pushed the development of the 308 loads and bullets but the 30 06 will happily shoot the same 155 target bullets as the 308.

 

[Motul1974]

My FEO told me 30.06 is that little bit easier get than a .308!.....I couldn't help but correct him on the rounds. I'd got my .308 anyway at that stage!

 

[Hunter5567]

I look at the 3006 with home loads as being in between the 308 and the 300 Magnums and being more suitable for larger beasts such as moose and brown bear, etc. since it is imparts a higher velocity on 200gr and up bullets. The 308 was/is inherently more accurate than the 3006 for military applications with subsequent reductions in target bullseyes used for differentiation between the marksmanship classifications. In the real world and with today's components and rifle technology, probably not much diiference.
The extra 150 to 200fps advantage does extend range a bit with the higher ballistic coefficient bullets losing approximately 200fps for every 100 yards traveled. In the real world, both will knock the dog poo out of a deer. In my Marlin 308MX using a 160gr FTX bullet, it will totally wreck the front shoulders on a 125lb deer so that I use high shoulder shots or behind the shoulder shots on deer so as to not ruin too much meat. If it runs, there is quite the adequate blood trail to follow for a short 30-40 yard dash at the most. The ballistics of the 308 Marlin Express are akin to the 300 Savage, the forerunner of the T65/308 cartridge., but dang if doesn't look like it does 3006 damage on shoulder shots.

 

[captdavid]

I only emember this a little bit. If I remember correctly the 30-06 and the 300 H&H were winning the long range competition. The 308 came along and the bullseye was too large. I believe it was 12" at 1000yards. If you can believe that, there were too many hits. The 308 was just that good. they had to make it half the size.
From a practical point it makes little difference, in the field, anything that shoots 1.5" groups is plenty good enough.

 

[captdavid]

That's extremely cool. Which muzzleloader did you use?

I used a Thompson Center 54 caliber, 120grains Pyrodex. capt david

 

[A Guy Out West]

Both are excellent, I have 2, 06s and 1 .308. The .308 is the easiest caliber I have ever hand loaded for. So many of you guys in the UK like the .308 Win that I think they should change it's name to the .308 UK.

 

[caorach]

Both are excellent, I have 2, 06s and 1 .308. The .308 is the easiest caliber I have ever hand loaded for. So many of you guys in the UK like the .308 Win that I think they should change it's name to the .308 UK.

I think the reason we like it so much is that it is easy to feed - we are right at the end of the supply chain with pretty restrictive firearms laws and a very small market for ammo etc. compared to somewhere like the USA so if you want to make life easy for yourself then what you need is a "common as muck" cartridge that you can get ammo or components for. The 308 is pretty much as close to that in the UK so if you are interested in stalking or shooting but, perhaps, have very little interest in guns, reloading, ammo and so on then the 308 is the obvious choice. Clearly someone who makes reloading or an interest in guns and ammo part of their "hobby" is going to be willing to put time into getting components or ammo and so less common cartridges can provide extra interest for them but for those who just want to get out at deer, or shoot a few targets, there is certainly no negatives with the 308.

 

[mchughcb]

When one compares a factory 308 with a hot 3006 in 165 gr there is up to 400 ftlb of difference

 

[shakey jake]

mchughcb how does it work the other way hot 308 vs factory 06?
shakey

 

[mchughcb]

Well depends on what components as there are some powders out there which are unobtainable and ain't necessarily the most accurate and you will have to use a long drop to compress more powder in there,

Nosler quotes Max 165gr with 52.5gr of Big Game Powder for 2910 fps for 3103ftlb
Next best
Nosler quotes Max 165gr with 46gr of Varget Powder for 2820 fps for 2914ftlb

Factories Hornady lists 165gr SST super performance at 2840fps for 2955 ftlb
Factories Hornady lists 165gr GMX full boar at 2610fps for 2495ftlb

in 30-06

Nosler quotes Max 165gr with 63gr of RL22 for 3002 fps for 3302ftlb
Next best
Nosler quotes Max 165gr with 57gr of RL17 Powder for 2909 fps for 3101ftlb

Factories Hornady lists 165gr SST super performance at 2960fps for 3211ftlb
Factories Hornady lists 165gr GMX full boar at 2800fps for 2873ftlb


As an aside, I chronographed by 30-06 last month using 4350 or 2209 and it gave an average of 2871fps for 3020ftlb with 165gr accubond in a 24" barrel.


All I'm saying is rather than quote some book, if you get out and measure your 308 loads you might find its not quite as powerful as you think and I've found reasonably hot loads out of the 30-06.

If you are hunting using the GMX full boar load in both calibres you are giving up 378 ftlb of energy = a lot.


My handload vs the 308Win Full Boar = 500 ftlb difference.