6.5 Grendel help please.

[Howa]

I'm just about to buy a CZ 527 MTR 26" barrel in 6.5 Grendel and can anyone help with start up loads please?

I have Tac, BL-C(2) and Vit N133 in powder choices.

I've tried accessing the 6.5 Grendel forum but my ad blocker keeps exiting me! and as yet I have been unable to stop this happening.

The Lee die set gives a few loads but if any one could help with more specific loads for this rifle, I would be most grateful.

 

[Rory]

Have a look at the powder manufacturers load data as well, Vhitavouri has some particularly detailed loads with a variety of bullets.

 

[25 Sharps]

I'm just about to buy a CZ 527 MTR 26" barrel in 6.5 Grendel and can anyone help with start up loads please?

I have Tac, BL-C(2) and Vit N133 in powder choices.

I've tried accessing the 6.5 Grendel forum but my ad blocker keeps exiting me! and as yet I have been unable to stop this happening.

The Lee die set gives a few loads but if any one could help with more specific loads for this rifle, I would be most grateful.

What weight bullet would be a start.

ramshot have load data for Tac https://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/WesternPowdersHandloadingGuide8.0_WEB.pdf

 

[Muir]

For what it's worth, Alexander Arm printed this list of accuracy loads some time back. I have run a lot of them so far. The BLC2 powder you mention is not on this list and I found it to be sub optimal in my Grendel CZs. I ran a lot od CFE223 and foud it highly temperature sensitive in the Grendel. Good loads at 35F flattened primers at 75F and in my instance, that won't work. Hodgdon's doesn't even list it for Grendel anymore.

I tried all the American powders except TAC which, according to Alexander, produces excellent performance/ accuracy. (Those are averages of three, five shot groups at 100 yards by the way) I thought I found bliss in H335 and Accurate 2520 but curiosity got the better of me and I ordered Shooter's World Match Rifle which is a rebranded Lovex D073.6. I have settled on this powder year round. Great performance. D073.6 is similar to Accurate 2520 but not identical.

In loading, don't over think the process. Full length resize the cases. Seat to specified OAL, and consider the application of a Lee Factor Crimp Die.

You won't have problems finding a good load. Just get to it. Grendel is a relaxing cartridge to reload for and a very accurate one, too boot. ~Muir

PS: No loss on the Grendel Forum. It's not all that and asking for loads will get a lot of ill founded opinions from absolute Nimrods.

 

[JL Grendel]

I had very good results with benchmark.

 

[Muir]

I had very good results with benchmark.

Mine were good as well but not endearing. ~Muir

 

[Laurie]

I've found best results to date from TAC and N133 with the 120 Lapua Scenar-L in a Howa Mini Varmint Oryx. My TAC loads run faster than N133 and is better suited to case volume being a very small grain ball type. N133 gives me slightly better groups though.

Alliant AR-Comp looks a possible option, but have yet to try it, likewise @Muir's favourite, Lovex DO73.6.

Watch shoulder position / headspace with Lapua brass. There is around 9 to 10 thou' difference between virgin and fireformed cases in my Howa, so the first firing has a near excess headspace condition. This gives some 'funny' primer appearances on the first firing too.

I ran a lot od CFE223 and foud it highly temperature sensitive in the Grendel. Good loads at 35F flattened primers at 75F and in my instance, that won't work. Hodgdon's doesn't even list it for Grendel anymore.

Interesting! So far, I've not been over-impressed by this powder and my first and only tin will be my last. I had been going to try it in the Grendel but won't bother now.

PS Bill Alexander advises that when having found an apparently decent combination, then try every make / model of primer you can lay your hands on as the cartridge is very primer sensitive. I'm increasingly of the opinion that this applies to all small size cartridges using SR primers, 223 Rem in match configuration likewise.

 

[Muir]

In the US it was a very popular Grendel fuel, and I noted that Norway, in is fine Grendel videos, favored it. That was a good push to try it. It worked fine but I got some temperature sensitivity I was not expecting. I have a large quantity of it still, I think, from a visitor who left an 8 pound keg of it in the reloading room augmenting the few 1 pound canisters I already had. I really don't use it for anything. (The only CFE powder I use is the CFE Black which gives splendid performance in the 7,62x39.) If you can lay hands on some of the Lovex D073-06 you will have a very versatile powder on hand and one that I've found to be excellent in the Grendel. Lovex D073-08, known here as Shooter's World Tactical Rifle, is also excellent in the Grendel, giving very similar performance. I haven't used it much but have shot some sub MOA a 200 with it from my CZ American and a loose field-style rest.

The 73-06 loads I have used in a wide range of temperatures, from about 0F to over 100F. No surprises.~Muir

I have posted this before, but this is 200 yards using the D073-06 from my CZ American over my back pack, aiming at someone's abandoned target. (PS: I use S&B SR primers. No clue how this magnum primer fascination began in the Grendel)

 

[Daddy The Skunk]

In the US it was a very popular Grendel fuel, and I noted that Norway, in is fine Grendel videos, favored it. That was a good push to try it. It worked fine but I got some temperature sensitivity I was not expecting. I have a large quantity of it still, I think, from a visitor who left an 8 pound keg of it in the reloading room augmenting the few 1 pound canisters I already had. I really don't use it for anything. (The only CFE powder I use is the CFE Black which gives splendid performance in the 7,62x39.) If you can lay hands on some of the Lovex D073-06 you will have a very versatile powder on hand and one that I've found to be excellent in the Grendel. Lovex D073-08, known here as Shooter's World Tactical Rifle, is also excellent in the Grendel, giving very similar performance. I haven't used it much but have shot some sub MOA a 200 with it from my CZ American and a loose field-style rest.

The 73-06 loads I have used in a wide range of temperatures, from about 0F to over 100F. No surprises.~Muir

I have posted this before, but this is 200 yards using the D073-06 from my CZ American over my back pack, aiming at someone's abandoned target. (PS: I use S&B SR primers. No clue how this magnum primer fascination began in the Grendel)
View attachment 210730

My thought is some bright soul decided better ignition, or using mil spec primers in the AR platform from my reading those are magnum by nature.

 

[Muir]

You are probably correct but I can't see it. I have loaded a lot of Grendel but never used "magnum" primers. I know some folks who use them for BLc2 but otherwise, usage seems to be by popular opinion; Guys on that Grendel site climb over each other for CCI450's. I have used standard CCI SR, BR-4, Remington 7.5, and lastly, the t'will-be-missed-when-they-are-gone, S&B SR. I have about 16K of these left and I reserve them for the Grendel. ~Muir

 

[Howa]

I've bought the CZ 527 MTR 26" barrel rifle and over the weekend will start to reload the first batch.

As Muir has reported poorer results on BL-C(2), that will be put to one side for my 223.

I will use Tac as the powder, I have CCI BR and standard CCI, also Murom in SR, I'll use the CCI BR first.

As for bullets, not a lot of choice at the moment, I have Sierra M/Kings in 107gr and V Max in 123gr, I also have PPU in 139gr, but I'll keep these for my 1917 6.5 Swede.

The cases are new Lapua.

I'll make up a few combinations of both bullets and the results will be interesting I'm sure.
I note Laurie's comment re headspace and as always will start on minimum loads.

 

[Muir]

Glad you picked up your rifle. How is the trigger? I have been routinely replacing CZ527 triggers with Timney (listed as being for the CZ 550) and like them better as I don't use single set triggers. Makes for a light 'pull' but I've found they inhibit accuracy: I shoot smaller groups with the standard trigger, no matter how heavy it is.

I have not used Lapua brass in my Grendel but take Laurie's advice. Yes, starting at minimum is the way to go.

I never load up a few of each. I pick one bullet and powder combination and load fifty of them. It allows you to truly know the characteristics of the load and allows you to get used to shooting the rifle. I have had loads where the first four or five from the box didn't impress, but as the bore got conditioned and I grew accustomed to shooting the new rifle, the groups tightened considerably. Too many people fire three or four and pronounce judgement. Think of this as the first date with the potential love of your life; don't go cheap.

As to bullets. I would go with the SMK's. I always get fliers with the 123 VM and have over several LOTS. Not awful, but certainly group spoilers. Yes. Leave the 139's to the 6,5x55. Mine love them.

Don't succumb to land measurement silliness or cleaning between shots. Get the new gun preservative out of the barrel and shoot, shoot, shoot. I envy you on this Saturday morning. New rifle. New load...
Great fun. ~Muir

 

[Laurie]

I never load up a few of each. I pick one bullet and powder combination and load fifty of them. It allows you to truly know the characteristics of the load and allows you to get used to shooting the rifle. I have had loads where the first four or five from the box didn't impress, but as the bore got conditioned and I grew accustomed to shooting the new rifle, the groups tightened considerably. Too many people fire three or four and pronounce judgement. Think of this as the first date with the potential love of your life; don't go cheap.

Yes, good advice. The Grendel has a fantastic barrel life, is dead easy (and fun) to shoot. Lapua brass is expensive, but if you get the sizer die setting / shoulder bump right, should last forever unless you load up to stonking pressure levels. It's very cheap to handload, quality bullets being the only relatively expensive component. With it being so easy on the barrel, it takes some time to run the barrel in and have it settle down. My N133 load gives 578 rounds from a kilo bottle. Its parent 7.62X39mm is probably the only thing that's cheaper to load and shoot (or 223 maybe if loading budget 55gn M193 FMJBT copies), but the Grendel's capabilities are in another dimension.

 

[Muir]

The Grendel and the 7.62x39 are a couple of my favorites and for the most part, throw the same weight bullet at equal velocities. (123 @ 2500) The Grendel gives legs to that bullet weight. In a very unscientific comparison , the details of which are subject to my foggy memory, the Nosler 123 grain Varmageddon ballistic tip from the X39 had approximately twice -a little more, actually- the drop of the 123 grain Vmax from the Grendel when sent down range at close to equal speeds. This was not a side by side comparison but rather observations from several shooting sessions. Both rifles were CZ's. The 7,62 an 18" carbine, and the Grendel a 24" American. The Grendel was loaded light that day. ~Muir

 

[Stalker1962]

Think of this as the first date with the potential love of your life; don't go cheap.

Well, this bit of outstanding advice comes twenty-six years too late. Couple of pints and a game of pool in the Greenman - (where she was repeatedly offered drugs in the ladies).

Have never heard the last of it...

 

[Howa]

Glad you picked up your rifle. How is the trigger? I have been routinely replacing CZ527 triggers with Timney (listed as being for the CZ 550) and like them better as I don't use single set triggers. Makes for a light 'pull' but I've found they inhibit accuracy: I shoot smaller groups with the standard trigger, no matter how heavy it is.

I have not used Lapua brass in my Grendel but take Laurie's advice. Yes, starting at minimum is the way to go.

I never load up a few of each. I pick one bullet and powder combination and load fifty of them. It allows you to truly know the characteristics of the load and allows you to get used to shooting the rifle. I have had loads where the first four or five from the box didn't impress, but as the bore got conditioned and I grew accustomed to shooting the new rifle, the groups tightened considerably. Too many people fire three or four and pronounce judgement. Think of this as the first date with the potential love of your life; don't go cheap.

As to bullets. I would go with the SMK's. I always get fliers with the 123 VM and have over several LOTS. Not awful, but certainly group spoilers. Yes. Leave the 139's to the 6,5x55. Mine love them.

Don't succumb to land measurement silliness or cleaning between shots. Get the new gun preservative out of the barrel and shoot, shoot, shoot. I envy you on this Saturday morning. New rifle. New load...
Great fun. ~Muir

Wish that I was able to shoot this weekend, but 3 hours next Wednesday is the only allowance with my club due to Covid restrictions, so will enjoy the first shoot then, and see what the trigger is like?
Thanks again for your advice and info on the Grendel, only have at the moment about 70 SMK's and about 30 Vmax so will be limited until I get some more hopefully next week and yes the 139gr's will stay for thew Swede.

 

[Howa]

Yes, good advice. The Grendel has a fantastic barrel life, is dead easy (and fun) to shoot. Lapua brass is expensive, but if you get the sizer die setting / shoulder bump right, should last forever unless you load up to stonking pressure levels. It's very cheap to handload, quality bullets being the only relatively expensive component. With it being so easy on the barrel, it takes some time to run the barrel in and have it settle down. My N133 load gives 578 rounds from a kilo bottle. Its parent 7.62X39mm is probably the only thing that's cheaper to load and shoot (or 223 maybe if loading budget 55gn M193 FMJBT copies), but the Grendel's capabilities are in another dimension.

Thank you for your help and advice.
If my maths are still correct your load weight for N133 is 26.70grs, which from my research for the CZ is a 123gr bullet.
I'm researching where ever I can for load and powder weights, wills start off as usual with a new rifle at minimums and see how they perform.
Your info on sizer die setting/shoulder bump is very interesting and I'll do my best to get that correct.

 

[Laurie]

Yes, 26.6gn N133 (an elderly lot). Bullet is the 120gn Lapua Scenar-L match., 2.26-inch COAL. Well after I worked the load up up, Sierra published its new Edition VI Reloading Manual, which now includes the Grendel, and its 'accuracy load' for its two 120s is 25.0gn N133 in Hornady brass (also shown as maximum load). (Sadly, there are few usable loads in its Grendel tables for us as they include hardly any Reach-compliant powders, not even TAC which is a near staple in the US as far as I can see.)

Lapua case, originally S&B SR primer (now used up), latterly standard Russian Murom KVB-223 (branded 'SR Competition'). Viht's nearest equivalent bullet in its 6.5G tables is the 123gn Lapua Scenar, Start: 21.0gn (way too low!); Maximum 26.7gn for 2,444 fps in a 24-inch barrel. IIRC, I get around 2,400 fps from the Howa's 20-inch barrel with 26.6gn. A very nice 300 yard load in settled conditions.

I'll move onto 123s (Sierra and Lapua) in due course, and also the Berger 130gn OTM AR-Tactical which I reckon is around as heavy a bullet as the tiny Grendel case can give decent velocities to. Viht also gives 123gn loads for N135 and N530. I briefly tried N530 with 107s and 120s and had inconsistent results, so gave up on it.

Viht doesn't say which industry standard it uses for its loads. There are two - US SAAMI at 52,000 psi max and European CIP at 4,050 bar / 58,740 psi. Sierra will certainly use the lower SAAMI ceiling, and I suspect Viht will too given the importance of the US market for the sale of its products. (Brass and bullets too as Lapua, Viht and Berger Bullets are all part of the Nammo corporate group.) There are small differences in the two pressure measuring methods, but nothing like enough to account for nearly 7,000 psi. The reason is the US maximum is limited by the cartridge's widespread use in the AR-15 system rifle in the USA and whose bolt was designed around the smaller dia. case-head of the 222/223 Rem. It is 'pushed' thrust-wise when matched to the Grendel's 0.443" case-head so pressures have to be limited to avoid premature bolt failure. This isn't an issue with either the Howa 'Mini' or Cz527 bolt-action designs.

 

[Daddy The Skunk]

You are probably correct but I can't see it. I have loaded a lot of Grendel but never used "magnum" primers. I know some folks who use them for BLc2 but otherwise, usage seems to be by popular opinion; Guys on that Grendel site climb over each other for CCI450's. I have used standard CCI SR, BR-4, Remington 7.5, and lastly, the t'will-be-missed-when-they-are-gone, S&B SR. I have about 16K of these left and I reserve them for the Grendel. ~

You are probably correct but I can't see it. I have loaded a lot of Grendel but never used "magnum" primers. I know some folks who use them for BLc2 but otherwise, usage seems to be by popular opinion; Guys on that Grendel site climb over each other for CCI450's. I have used standard CCI SR, BR-4, Remington 7.5, and lastly, the t'will-be-missed-when-they-are-gone, S&B SR. I have about 16K of these left and I reserve them for the Grendel. ~Muir

My desire for the Grendel has always been a bolt gun or a Ruger No1 with 26 inches of barrel. So far I have never acted. With the powder capacity so small I would think mag primers are overkill. If data is there I am thinking IMR8208xbr or RL-15, CFE 223.

 

[Howa]

Yes, 26.6gn N133 (an elderly lot). Bullet is the 120gn Lapua Scenar-L match., 2.26-inch COAL. Well after I worked the load up up, Sierra published its new Edition VI Reloading Manual, which now includes the Grendel, and its 'accuracy load' for its two 120s is 25.0gn N133 in Hornady brass (also shown as maximum load). (Sadly, there are few usable loads in its Grendel tables for us as they include hardly any Reach-compliant powders, not even TAC which is a near staple in the US as far as I can see.)

Lapua case, originally S&B SR primer (now used up), latterly standard Russian Murom KVB-223 (branded 'SR Competition'). Viht's nearest equivalent bullet in its 6.5G tables is the 123gn Lapua Scenar, Start: 21.0gn (way too low!); Maximum 26.7gn for 2,444 fps in a 24-inch barrel. IIRC, I get around 2,400 fps from the Howa's 20-inch barrel with 26.6gn. A very nice 300 yard load in settled conditions.

I'll move onto 123s (Sierra and Lapua) in due course, and also the Berger 130gn OTM AR-Tactical which I reckon is around as heavy a bullet as the tiny Grendel case can give decent velocities to. Viht also gives 123gn loads for N135 and N530. I briefly tried N530 with 107s and 120s and had inconsistent results, so gave up on it.

Viht doesn't say which industry standard it uses for its loads. There are two - US SAAMI at 52,000 psi max and European CIP at 4,050 bar / 58,740 psi. Sierra will certainly use the lower SAAMI ceiling, and I suspect Viht will too given the importance of the US market for the sale of its products. (Brass and bullets too as Lapua, Viht and Berger Bullets are all part of the Nammo corporate group.) There are small differences in the two pressure measuring methods, but nothing like enough to account for nearly 7,000 psi. The reason is the US maximum is limited by the cartridge's widespread use in the AR-15 system rifle in the USA and whose bolt was designed around the smaller dia. case-head of the 222/223 Rem. It is 'pushed' thrust-wise when matched to the Grendel's 0.443" case-head so pressures have to be limited to avoid premature bolt failure. This isn't an issue with either the Howa 'Mini' or Cz527 bolt-action designs.

I have decided on the following combination to load, will be using Tac thanks to your info on metering.
Primers will be CCI BM, bullets will be SMK 107gr and Lapua new cases.
According to the info on the Lee die sheet, for that bullet (SMK 107gr) start at 26.9gr.
My only decision left is how far off the lands to load to? As the O.A.L is 2.260", I am thinking of starting at 2.240"
Any views on that would be welcomed.