8x57JR or 8x57IR loads
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American ammunition manufacturers set the SAAMI spec for the 8x57 "Mauser" at 36,000 PSI in the event that a .323" round was loaded into a "J" bore rifle. (Of which we had millions floating around in the surplus market or as 'bring backs' from WWII) I have several "J" bore rifles and usually begin my loads with US data that tops at 36,000PSI. I can then work up as I see fit -which is what should be done with any weapon of any chambering. I have noticed that most of these US loads leave sooty necks from under obturation of the brass even as I work up to maximum.
The first thing to do is to slug your rifle's groove diameter and take a chamber cast of the throat. You would be surprised how many of the .318" groove rifles tend to run closer to .322" when actually measured.~Muir
The first thing to do is to slug your rifle's groove diameter and take a chamber cast of the throat. You would be surprised how many of the .318" groove rifles tend to run closer to .322" when actually measured.~Muir
Thanks Muir, appreciated.
Have plenty of N150 so was thinking of this: Load 9941 detail in caliber 8x57 JS
-10% as a starting point.
Just concerned that 55gr seems like a lot of N150....
Have plenty of N150 so was thinking of this: Load 9941 detail in caliber 8x57 JS
-10% as a starting point.
Just concerned that 55gr seems like a lot of N150....
I don't follow loads from the "submission" web sites. They are just folks who submit a load that they shoot -generally no science behind it. To the point, a quick check of their site shows the max load for a 200 grain bullet is about 49 grains using N150 in the standard 8x57 so that kinda rules out the 55 grain charge. Who you gonna trust?
Reduce the starting load of N150 from Vhit's web site and you will probably be OK. The problem with Vhit's data is that they do not list pressures. I find that information invaluable n powder selection and load development.
You haven't mentioned the weapon. What are you shooting? ~Muir
I have a pile of recipes for 8x57I, as well as 8x57IR, 8x57IRS, 8x57IS, 8x60 and 8x60S. And I have tried a few of them.
What is your 8x57I rifle? Mine is an 1888 Commission Rifle, about as weak as they come.
What powder do you have on hand, or can get?
As Muir said, slug your bore. Just oil up a piece of 00 buckshot, which should be .320, and tap it into the muzzle with a wooden dowel. Then tap it out from the other end with a wooden dowel, and put the calipers on it.
Many 8x57I rifles were recut with a chasing broach to make them 8x57IS, because that is all that the .323 bore is - just deeper grooves. The .318 was wearing out too fast. Not all of them, especially military, have obvious reproofing marks.
The brass can be run with an 8x57IS die, and if it it is not tight enough, you can buy a smaller expanding ball ( at least on the Lee Dies ) for little money.
Remington 8x57 RN ammo is .321 inch and very mild, because they know someone might fire it in an older 8x57IS rifle. My 1888 likes it.
Hornady and others make soft 170-gr bullets in .321 inch for the .32-40 Winchester. You can load these up to 2,400 fps at 35,000 PSI and kill deer all day long.
What is your 8x57I rifle? Mine is an 1888 Commission Rifle, about as weak as they come.
What powder do you have on hand, or can get?
As Muir said, slug your bore. Just oil up a piece of 00 buckshot, which should be .320, and tap it into the muzzle with a wooden dowel. Then tap it out from the other end with a wooden dowel, and put the calipers on it.
Many 8x57I rifles were recut with a chasing broach to make them 8x57IS, because that is all that the .323 bore is - just deeper grooves. The .318 was wearing out too fast. Not all of them, especially military, have obvious reproofing marks.
The brass can be run with an 8x57IS die, and if it it is not tight enough, you can buy a smaller expanding ball ( at least on the Lee Dies ) for little money.
Remington 8x57 RN ammo is .321 inch and very mild, because they know someone might fire it in an older 8x57IS rifle. My 1888 likes it.
Hornady and others make soft 170-gr bullets in .321 inch for the .32-40 Winchester. You can load these up to 2,400 fps at 35,000 PSI and kill deer all day long.
I load the 195, 196 and 200 grain bullets in my 8x57IS and 8x60S, to 2,500 up to 2,600 fps, and they shoot great, but it is a hot load, high BC, deep penetration on big game.
I don't load those heavy bullets in my 8x57IRS nor my 8x57I Commission (1888). And I use 4895 and 4350.
I would load your drilling at the SAAMI specs:
139 gr soft point: CIP mv 2690 fps SAAMI 2608 fps
185 gr Grom (homogenous)bullet: CIP 2460 fps, SAAMI 2181 fps
196 gr soft point: CIP 2460 fps, SAAMI 2181 fps
That is a bit more than 10% lower for SAAMI, so I would use 10% below the starting load of N-150. In fact, I would load 43.7 grains of N-150 for the 150, the 170, 180, and 196 grain bullets as my safe guess, based on what I know about the 170 grain.
VithaVituori loads for 8x57IS:
8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser) - Rifle reloading - Reloading Data - Vihtavuori
I don't load those heavy bullets in my 8x57IRS nor my 8x57I Commission (1888). And I use 4895 and 4350.
I would load your drilling at the SAAMI specs:
139 gr soft point: CIP mv 2690 fps SAAMI 2608 fps
185 gr Grom (homogenous)bullet: CIP 2460 fps, SAAMI 2181 fps
196 gr soft point: CIP 2460 fps, SAAMI 2181 fps
That is a bit more than 10% lower for SAAMI, so I would use 10% below the starting load of N-150. In fact, I would load 43.7 grains of N-150 for the 150, the 170, 180, and 196 grain bullets as my safe guess, based on what I know about the 170 grain.
VithaVituori loads for 8x57IS:
8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser) - Rifle reloading - Reloading Data - Vihtavuori
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Perfect, thanks Southern. I'll give that a go. Also the Norma 202 seems a popular choice in 8x57IRS. Some sensible starting points here: 8x57 JRS - Norma
Just can't seem to source Norma powders easily around here.
Just can't seem to source Norma powders easily around here.
Also for the reference of anyone else reading this, I managed to find this one on a search: 8x57?? Anybody shoot it? - Page 2
8x57
Distinguished Member
The old Lyman data for the 8x57IS runs from 26,000 to 37,000 PSI, so although it says it is not for .318 bore rifles and guns, that is just a legal disclaimer.
I have scans of two pages but they are too large to post. I might type up one of them, for the 170-gr, with all the powders.
Another thing... P.O. Ackley tested a lot of .318 and .323 bore rifles, and said the higher pressures in the 8x57I and 8x57IR were mostly due to a tight throat. You can check that by inserting an 8x57IRS cartridge ( or maybe the right fired case, or sized case), and feeling resistance to chambering.
I have scans of two pages but they are too large to post. I might type up one of them, for the 170-gr, with all the powders.
Another thing... P.O. Ackley tested a lot of .318 and .323 bore rifles, and said the higher pressures in the 8x57I and 8x57IR were mostly due to a tight throat. You can check that by inserting an 8x57IRS cartridge ( or maybe the right fired case, or sized case), and feeling resistance to chambering.
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As a requested update - I tried a few loads today and got a few velocities to start with:
OAL of 75.8mm
196gr S&B SP
IMR 4064
CCI benchrest primers
42.75gr - 2275 fps
45.15gr - 2550 fps
47.50gr - 2650 fps
Currently it was shooting high and right, but I didn't have enough rounds to put together a sensible group having underestimated the number I would need on iron sights and the patience required to wait for a drilling barrel to cool. So another day will be needed to get it shooting.
I will most likely stick with the 45.15gr load as ~2500 fps is zipping along fast enough for an 86yr old drilling. It certainly kicks! No excess pressure signs in any of the loads.
OAL of 75.8mm
196gr S&B SP
IMR 4064
CCI benchrest primers
42.75gr - 2275 fps
45.15gr - 2550 fps
47.50gr - 2650 fps
Currently it was shooting high and right, but I didn't have enough rounds to put together a sensible group having underestimated the number I would need on iron sights and the patience required to wait for a drilling barrel to cool. So another day will be needed to get it shooting.
I will most likely stick with the 45.15gr load as ~2500 fps is zipping along fast enough for an 86yr old drilling. It certainly kicks! No excess pressure signs in any of the loads.
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Those are bolt action loads - too hot, if your chronograph is right. You can't go by pressure signs on the brass and primer, because you are not shooting a modern bolt action at 50,000+ PSI, with a maximum of 56,000 PSI.
8x57JR or 8x57JRS should never exceed 42,000 PSI.
46.0 gr of IMR-4064 in R-P brass with CCI 200 primers should give 2.450 to 2,500 fps in a 24-inch barrel bolt action.
44.0 gr of IMR-4064 with a 195 / 196 /200 gr bullet is a sweet load for a modern K98, and probably max for any drilling.
For a drilling, you need to be in the same MV range as 196-gr Sellier & Bellot or Norma ammunition - about 2,380 FPS.
That is about where your iron sights are regulated.
Remember, you are going to be using the drilling at probably less than 100 yards.
A Nosler 200-gr Partition out of my old 8x60S Mauser Stutzen at 2,500 FPS shot almost completely through an angry 800 pound bear lengthwise, in the hands of its current owner.
8x57JR or 8x57JRS should never exceed 42,000 PSI.
46.0 gr of IMR-4064 in R-P brass with CCI 200 primers should give 2.450 to 2,500 fps in a 24-inch barrel bolt action.
44.0 gr of IMR-4064 with a 195 / 196 /200 gr bullet is a sweet load for a modern K98, and probably max for any drilling.
For a drilling, you need to be in the same MV range as 196-gr Sellier & Bellot or Norma ammunition - about 2,380 FPS.
That is about where your iron sights are regulated.
Remember, you are going to be using the drilling at probably less than 100 yards.
A Nosler 200-gr Partition out of my old 8x60S Mauser Stutzen at 2,500 FPS shot almost completely through an angry 800 pound bear lengthwise, in the hands of its current owner.
You shouldn't have to mess with the elevation... maybe just a gentle tap with a brass punch to tweak the windage, but not until you get the MV right.
These old guns had the sights regulated by gunsmiths at the factory, to match standard loads. That is why you see the various brands with nearly the same MV for the same bullet weights for the 8x57JRS and 7x57R, which have been around for over a century.
Don't expect it to shoot right to the sights at 100 yards, as it may not have been regulated that way. It may be zeroed for 150 meters, and a bit high at 100 meters. When you get it shooting smallish groups, they will probably also be centered up and elevation good, too.
Do you have one leaf or two? My 8x57JRS has one leaf which pops up when I push the button to select the rifle barrel. My 7x57R combination gun has two small leaves in the rib, one for shorter range and one for long. Remember, back in those days, it was common for a Sporting Mauser in 8x57 or 7x57 to have two leaves, one set for 150m and one for 300m.
My 8x57JRS is regulated to about 125m with 196-gr S&B at 2,360 FPS.
My 7x57R, I have shooting well with several bullet weights, about 1 inch high at 100 yards. So if I aim with a Coke bottle cap floating just above the fine blade, I will vaporize it with 173-gr at 2,350 or a 140-gr at 2,650+ fps.
IMR-4064 is a good powder for the 8x57s, mild or hot loads.
How long are your barrels?
These old guns had the sights regulated by gunsmiths at the factory, to match standard loads. That is why you see the various brands with nearly the same MV for the same bullet weights for the 8x57JRS and 7x57R, which have been around for over a century.
Don't expect it to shoot right to the sights at 100 yards, as it may not have been regulated that way. It may be zeroed for 150 meters, and a bit high at 100 meters. When you get it shooting smallish groups, they will probably also be centered up and elevation good, too.
Do you have one leaf or two? My 8x57JRS has one leaf which pops up when I push the button to select the rifle barrel. My 7x57R combination gun has two small leaves in the rib, one for shorter range and one for long. Remember, back in those days, it was common for a Sporting Mauser in 8x57 or 7x57 to have two leaves, one set for 150m and one for 300m.
My 8x57JRS is regulated to about 125m with 196-gr S&B at 2,360 FPS.
My 7x57R, I have shooting well with several bullet weights, about 1 inch high at 100 yards. So if I aim with a Coke bottle cap floating just above the fine blade, I will vaporize it with 173-gr at 2,350 or a 140-gr at 2,650+ fps.
IMR-4064 is a good powder for the 8x57s, mild or hot loads.
How long are your barrels?
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