8x57jrs

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8x57

Distinguished Member
I have been trying to replicate the Norma Onxy load that my rifle is regulated for. Ruag do not import Norma powders into the U.K. only Norma bullets.
Has anyone got a pet load for 8x57jrs that will produce similar results to the Norma load, or can anyone suggest a powder similar to Norma 202.
 

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
What weight of bullet do you use, I have Ken Waters pet loads and he has a lot of information and loads in there for the 8X57 JS Mauser. The only Norma load he mentions is for 196 gr RNSP and for that he use IMR-4064 and IMR-4895. Most of his loading, but not all, seem to revolve around IMR with a sprinkling of VV and others.

I hope this helps, let me know if you want more info.

John
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
Thanks JayB but it is the rimmed round with 196grn bullet not 8mm Mauser that I am interested in. What I want to do is duplicate the Norma Onyx load if possible so that impact of both barrels converge at 50m.
Accuracy has not been a problem with various loads that I have developed for this rifle, convergance is another matter.
I know that the Norma loads work and are my benchmark, I just want to replicate this load.
 

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
Well, I can't help you with specific loads but, I have just looked at a burn rate chart which shows Norma 202 sitting right between VV N540 and IMR4320. Could give you a starting point.

John
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
8x57 said:
Thanks JayB but it is the rimmed round with 196grn bullet not 8mm Mauser that I am interested in. What I want to do is duplicate the Norma Onyx load if possible so that impact of both barrels converge at 50m.
Accuracy has not been a problem with various loads that I have developed for this rifle, convergance is another matter.
I know that the Norma loads work and are my benchmark, I just want to replicate this load.

The loading data for the 8x57JR and the 8x57J are identical. ("The Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions", Nonte) When forming appropriate base-brass to 8x57JR it is finished in the standard 8x57J die set.

I found this on a web search

http://www.handloads.com/forum/showthread.asp?topic=3&thread=2009

This guy is using 30 grains of N-202 with a 200 grain bullet at 1778 fps in his drilling. It's a place to start.

Good Luck. ~Muir
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
Thanks for trying Muir, but we are talking about a differant round here.
8x57jrs or 8x57irs as it is sometimes marked, is a very common round in Europe and not to be confused with the earlier rounds that this article refers to.
8x57jrs is not just the rimmed version of 8mm Mauser (7.92x57), it is loaded to lower pressures for break action guns and generally runs about 200fps slower as a result. Therefore the data is not interchangeable.
My problem is that I want to duplicate the Norma 196grn oryx load but the Norma powders are not available in the U.K. I have obtained good accuracy with a few powders but have not been able to get the convergence of the barrels at 50m that I obtain with the Norma load.
Norma ammo isn't cheap here and I would prefer to load my own if I can.
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
Thanks 300wsm.
Tu5000 is one of the powders that I have been using, accurate but for some reason various combinations have been tried and the two barrels will not converge like the Norma Oryx loads that the rifle was regulated for. The Norma load is my benchmark. I am trying to duplicate this load but unfortunately Ruag do not import the powder only the bullets.
 

300wsm

Well-Known Member
A quick look on Quickload suggests N135 and H4895 are fairly close pressures and velocities to Norma 202 pm me some details and I put the into quick load for you.
 

stag1933

Well-Known Member
If you are using a double rifle you could experiment with TWO different bullet heads in each barrel.
It is possible that by interchanging one with the other you may get the required convergence.
For many years I used a Merkel actioned 7X65R O/U and used to put a round-nose 173gr reload in the bottom barrel for short range forest work on Roe and Muntys and a 130gr spitzer in the top for longer range work on the mountain for Reds.
When the 173gr in the bottom barrel was zeroed to centre at 100 yards the 130gr in the top barrel impacted 3" high at 100yards which was excellent for Reds out to 200 yards on the mountain.

HWH.
 

stag1933

Well-Known Member
The Merkel and a brace of Roe many years ago when I was not an old cull Stag.

HWH.
P1010163.jpg
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
stag 1933, I've heard this theory before about different loads in top and bottom barrels but personally like to keep things uncomplicated with the same load in each barrel. I operate on the KISS principle ( keep it simple, stupid).
The Norma 196grn Oryx load easily puts both barrels in a 2" square at 50M and will produce a three shot group from each barrel into an inch at 100yds, unfortunately the bottom barrel group will be 2" right and 2" below the top barrel group at this distance.
My personal set up is to zero the scope to put the top barrel spot on at 100yds and to use this as my primary barrel, and to limit shots from the bottom barrel to around 50M. I am happy to accept this arrangement, acknowledging that double rifles are primarily designed to fire two quick rounds at short range usually 50M for driven shooting.
While Norma factory ammo produces acceptable convergence as stated above all my reloads so far have produced reasonable to good grouping but poor convergence, it must be down to barrel harmonics. I will continue my search for a load that does the same as the factory load, strange how a calibre that is so popular in Europe has so little reloading data available.
 

stag1933

Well-Known Member
It is normal practice with O/U rifles and shotguns to fire the BOTTOM barrel FIRST not the reverse as stated in your last post.
If you zero the bottom barrel at 100 yards you may find your results are different with the second shot from the top barrel.
As you say `keep it simple` but if you ignore normal practice you only add to your problems.

HWH.
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
Thanks stag1933, I was aware of this and the reason (less strain on lock up), but my reasoning is to get the scope as close to the boreline as possible, which is always desireable with any scoped rifle.
My rifle has a Boss type action where the lugs lock at mid point between the barrels, strain should be less than bottom locking. Similar thinking to the Beretta shotgun system, and that seems to work O.K.
Also I don't intend to shoot it excessively and certainly not use loads right at the top end of pressure limits.
You've made a good point though and perhaps I should experiment with zeroing the scope to the bottom barrel and using the top barrel for short range. I'll give it a try.
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
8x57 said:
Thanks for trying Muir, but we are talking about a differant round here.
8x57jrs or 8x57irs as it is sometimes marked, is a very common round in Europe and not to be confused with the earlier rounds that this article refers to.
8x57jrs is not just the rimmed version of 8mm Mauser (7.92x57), it is loaded to lower pressures for break action guns and generally runs about 200fps slower as a result. Therefore the data is not interchangeable.
My problem is that I want to duplicate the Norma 196grn oryx load but the Norma powders are not available in the U.K. I have obtained good accuracy with a few powders but have not been able to get the convergence of the barrels at 50m that I obtain with the Norma load.
Norma ammo isn't cheap here and I would prefer to load my own if I can.

I forget where I am posting sometimes. In the US, the load for the 8x57J (circa 1888, .318" bullet) and the 8x57JS are the same. The SAAMI loading specs for commercial manufacturers list a pressure of 35,000 PSI in deference to the large number of 1888 Commission Mausers that have found their way into the US. This insures that someone firing a .323" commercial round in one of these old rifles will not put their eye out, so to speak. Accordingly, most powder makers list loads that top out at SAAMI spec for the very same reason. When they don't, they are pretty clear about the suitability of the loads listed. Your loading data for your rifle may lie in US powder manufacturers data. (The only maker I know that lists high pressure loads for the 8x57 is Accurate Arms who lists loads that are at 97% of 30-06 pressures -somewhere in the neighborhood of 55,000 PSI.)

I have several old "J" bore (or "I", if you will) sporters including a Haenel factory sporter based on the 1888 Mauser. Like you, I must be very careful in my load selection. Good luck in your quest.~Muir

Good lo
 

ezzy6.5

Well-Known Member
Hi 8x57,

I'm pleaed to see that you operate on the KISS principle, It's one i teach to all my apprentices.
One thing strikes me about this, although i've no experience with the8x57 i do a lot of reloading and reading this post 1 thing jumps out at me.
If your only issue with theOryx is the cost and your reloading to save money i wonder how much Amunition you would need to fire to get your money back from load development. One of the reasons i reload is the testing stage helps me improve my shooting, i doubt if i even break even if i take into account the cost of dies and powder and range fees and the stuff i waste working up a load. perhaps it might be cheaper to stick with factory.

Ezzy.
 

8x57

Distinguished Member
ezzy, wash your mouth out!
As a reloader you should be ashamed of suggesting that I buy factory ammo. That's a bit like suggesting buying in a trained dog, or buying a new truck and getting someone else to drive it for you. Shame on you!
Apart from .22lr I have only bought 140 rounds of factory ammo in the last 30 years, and most of them were for the cases.
Cost and continuity of supply are the main reasons for reloading apart from tailoring loads to your own rifle. Norma Oryx in 8x57irs run about £125 per 100. I bought 250 once fired RWS cases on ebay from a guy in Germany for 8 Euros including postage. Cheap prvi partizan bullets for practise can be purchased for £9 per hundred. Dies are not expensive and last for ever. Range fees, what range fees? My club has a 100yd indoor range and charges less than £50 a year total.
I enjoy shooting and reloading allows me to shoot a reasonable amount and enjoy my rifles. I also enjoy reloading, it's a hobby in it's self and if I were to win the Eurolottery tomorrow (£42 million) I would still reload.
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
Well said! If I were to purchase a 50 ctg. box of Winchester Supreme ammunition for my CZ 22 Hornet it would cost $57 US right now. Dies cost $30. Bullets $8/100, Primers $2.50/1000, Brass $22/100. Powder is about $19/pound for Lil Gun -for which each cartridge uses 13 grains.

I shoot about 150 rounds of Hornet a month in the field. There is no way that factory ammo is cheaper then reloading. Were I wealthy I also would still reload!~Muir
 
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