A question about the gralloch. (DSC1)

BRACES of Bristol - Dark Fox Package, Mauser M12, LIEMKE Thermal Scope, Wildcat Mod

basil

Distinguished Member
Right, your doing your DSC1, the weather is fowl it`s just stopped raining. The floor is muddy. You`ve just shot a Deer.
You have just removed the stomach and you come to the edible offal. Can you.......... Inform your assessor that you would rather remove the offal back at the larder as the conditions in the field are not, in your opinion, siutable to perform a hygienic removal of the edible offal?
basil.
 

User00004

Distinguished Member
basil said:
Inform your assessor that you would rather remove the offal back at the larder as the conditions in the field are not, in your opinion, siutable to perform a hygienic removal of the edible offal?

Do you mean DSC 2? Didn't come accross this on my DSC 1, I only did it 2 weeks ago...

Anyway, can't see why not, I know many people who leave the "pluck" in the carcass.

TJ
 
D

Davie

Guest
basil the smaller the cut and the less messing about in the field the better so yes the pluck can be left in. I would not recommend this if you are a very long way from home etc.
 

Pete E

Well-Known Member
basil,

No problem at all with that approach if circumstances dictate..

Again depending on the circumstances and species involved, you could also do a full suspended grolloch and simply bag up the offal you wish to take back. Remember though that you must inspect the pluck before dispossing off it...
Regards,

Peter
 

Mannlicher_Stu

Well-Known Member
`What a load of ********

No you cant do the inspection at home not if your with a DSC2 assesor.

It is quite clear whilst carrying out a stalk an assesor needs to see that you are fully competent in the following.

A. identifying the beast and sex also he needs to be at the side of you or in very close proximity so that he can see that you are proficient whilst taking of the safety etc.

B. He needs to see that you are competent in visualy observing that the deer you are shooting is in either good or bad condition as this is important and acting in a normal manner.

c. He needs to be at the side of you whilst doing the inspection of the beast prior to gralloch to ascertain if the beasts suffers from contagious deseases and that you are competent in identifying such if present. Such as T.B Foot and Mouth and Anthrax

He will need to see the intestines in particular the jejenum so that you can identify the mesenteric glands to see if they are enlarged along with the pluck to check the portal nodes and medistinal nodes and both bronchial nodes on the pluck also the lung tissue itself for evidence of T.B and the internal rib cage for lesions, he will also need to see the gland on the liver as well, also the retro pharyngeal glands at the back of the tongue and the submaxillary glands in the upper cheek for signs of TB and foot and mouth. If the carcass was removed to a larder before these examinations took place then the answer to your question is a definite no. Unless of course the assesor accompanied you back and watched you do the inspection.

Regards Stu

The correct procedure would be remove the carcass from contaminated area pref in a roe sack affording it some protection to an area that is more cleaner and carry out the above proceedures there in view of the assessor.

there again if its for your own consumption and your not being assessed you could do anything you liked with it including dragging it through a cess pit if you wanted to:rofl:

Just Joking of course
 
Last edited:

IanF

Well-Known Member
`What a load of ********

No you cant do the inspection at home not if your with a DSC2 assesor.

the answer to your question is a definite no. Unless of course the assesor accompanied you back and watched you do the inspection. QUOTE]


Simply put:

Yes, you can take the beast to a larder and perform the gralloch in the company of your Approved Witness.

To avoid excessive delay in gralloching, the larder needs to be close by or you will need to remove the green offal in a clean area, prior to transport.

While he will be happy to see you demonstrate your knowledge of the whole lymphatic system, he is actually checking to see you can identify the Sub maxillary, Retro Pharyngeal & Mesenteric nodes.

Rgds

Ian
 
Last edited:

JC275

Well-Known Member
I would much rather see a candidate do a field gralloch in the woods then return to the larder to complete the lardering and inspection process. This allows him to demonstrate that he is confident working in both environments. It also allows for minimum cuts to be made in the field, before transport, where the risk of contamination is highest.

I am also happy for the candidate to elect to simply bleed the beast in the field and do the remainder of the work in the larder if it is close enough to be reached within an appropriate time, depending on the season, but I would advise a candidate not to do all three grallochs in a larder as the Assessor is likely to pick up on this and look for more evidence that the candidate is competent to work in the field too.

Having said this, remember the portfolio is 'candidate led' so you can work however you want and the AW should simply record what he sees and ask questions that are relevant.

If, for whatever reason, the AW does not accompany the candidate back to the larder then, obviously, he would need to witness the inspection in the field and would be likely to ask extensive questions in order to allow the candidate to demonstrate his knowledge of larder proceedures.

JC
 
Last edited:

Mannlicher_Stu

Well-Known Member
`What a load of ********

No you cant do the inspection at home not if your with a DSC2 assesor.

the answer to your question is a definite no. Unless of course the assesor accompanied you back and watched you do the inspection. QUOTE]


Simply put:

Yes, you can take the beast to a larder and perform the gralloch in the company of your Approved Witness.

To avoid excessive delay in gralloching, the larder needs to be close by or you will need to remove the green offal in a clean area, prior to transport.

While he will be happy to see you demonstrate your knowledge of the whole lymphatic system, he is actually checking to see you can identify the Sub maxillary, Retro Pharyngeal & Mesenteric nodes.

Rgds

Ian

Its alright being able to identify them Ian but you need to demonstrate not only where they are but what they would look like if infected and the carcass needs cooling quickly as per the food hygiene regs, leaving the pluck in for any length of time will extend the cooling process considerably, not all stalkers have larder facilities on their ground and mine are 150 miles away from my stalking patch like most stalkers so it is imperative that the carcass is cooled and dealt with in as quick a manner as possible.

I can just imagine what my DSC2 AW would have said if I wanted to complete the gralloch at home, he would i think have laughed his ******** off
 
Last edited:

JC275

Well-Known Member
I can just imagine what my DSC2 AW would have said if I wanted to complete the gralloch at home, he would i think have laughed his ******** off

He might have laughed but, personally, if thats what you had wanted to do, I would have simply not filled in the larder and inspection section of the ICR and noted in the AW Additional notes that it was your decision. If the AW is influencing how you work then he is training you not witnessing you. These two things must be kept separate. Given that your larder is 150 miles from your ground I guess he questioned you heavily on this area?
JC

Sorry Ian, can't see how that quote has been attributed to you instead of Mannlicher Stu.
 

Mannlicher_Stu

Well-Known Member
There is also another issue here in this post.

I question if its good practice to remove a carcass from the ground that you shot it , If only taking the green out and doing the rest in the larder, What if its later found on further inspection to have a notifiable disease and its been removed from the scene?

if it had early stages of Anthrax for instance:D

By removing it from the scene you may have contaminated half of Britain, I accept that there have been no cases of anthrax found in deer in the British Isles but who knows, and removing a carcass that has foot and mouth for instance also contamination problems All notifiable deseases which needs imediate notification to the state vet

JC if your going to quote my comments please refer to them in full and not part of or snippets a sentence.
Thanks
stu
 
Last edited:

JC275

Well-Known Member
Sorry Stu, my last comment wasn't meant to be smart or anything, don't know how that quote got cocked up.

As I have said before, there are no rights and wrongs in DSC2, it is your opportunity to demonstrate your skills and knowledge in the presence of an Accreddited/Approved Witness who will record it.

For example, your last post would could form the basis of a good answer to a question on the implications of moving animals which are suspected to be diseased. I am always pleased when a candidate gives Their answer in Their words rather than just regurgetating what they think you want to hear.

JC
 

barry thom

Well-Known Member
HI guys, it is standared procedure to do a hill gralloch , removing the green offal, or stomach and intestinal tract and then doing the full inspection in the larder in scotland, the candidate should be able to identify a sick or poor conditioned animal bofore he shoots it and as a result check the submaxillary nodes , under the tongue in the lower jaw and retropharyngeal at the base of the tongue/back of the throat and the mesenteric nodes round the small intestines this will give a very good indication of any abnormalities, if there are then a full inspection should take place where you are, if not then back to the larder with the carcass and do one in clean, hygienic, contianable, sittuation.

Dry Powder.

Barry
 

willie_gunn

Well-Known Member
For my DSC2 I did the full gralloch in the field - both green and pluck. However, that was our choice. I could as easily have done the green gralloch in the field and then taken the carcase back to the larder to complete the gralloch of the pluck there.

If you check the Best Practice Guides for both England/Wales and Scotland you will see that either is allowable:

http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/pdf/guide_carcass_gralloching010509.pdf
http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/pdf/guide_carcass_lardering010509.pdf

Naturally, If I was being witnessed for an ICR my AW would have to accompany me.

willie_gunn
 

Mannlicher_Stu

Well-Known Member
For my DSC2 I did the full gralloch in the field - both green and pluck. However, that was our choice. I could as easily have done the green gralloch in the field and then taken the carcase back to the larder to complete the gralloch of the pluck there.

If you check the Best Practice Guides for both England/Wales and Scotland you will see that either is allowable:

http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/pdf/guide_carcass_gralloching010509.pdf
http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/pdf/guide_carcass_lardering010509.pdf

Naturally, If I was being witnessed for an ICR my AW would have to accompany me.

willie_gunn


I presume your less than 1 hr away on a cold day from your larder or 15 minutes on a hot day then:D


When and Where
[FONT=Humanst521 BT,Humanst521 BT][FONT=Humanst521 BT,Humanst521 BT]The gralloch should take place as soon as possible after culling, preferably immediately. There is a small window of time during which an intact carcass will remain in perfectly good condition, an hour or so in cool conditions (say 10ºC or less) but a little as 15 minutes on hot days exposed to the sun. If the gut is damaged these times will be greatly reduced.
The place at which the gralloch is done will vary according to the prevailing conditions and facilities available. Ideally the whole process would be carried out in a deer larder but commonly it has to be done where the animal was shot, although it is sensible to perform the gralloch away from very public areas. All or part of the gralloch might have to be done on the ground, but smaller carcasses might be suspended if there is a suitable place to do so.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
 
Last edited:

IanF

Well-Known Member
:)

Reading this thread again, we are all saying the same thing.

Do whatever gralloch you want for your ICR.

Take into account the conditions prevailing at the site of the cull, and decide accordingly.

Understand the reasons for inspection & be able to demonstrate them.

No arguments here! :)

Rgds

Ian
 

willie_gunn

Well-Known Member
Stu

We were probably about 40 minutes from the stalking ground to the larder. In my case we were using the AW's larder, though mine is only another 10 minutes further away.

However, the original question states that the stomach is removed immeadiately whereas the edible offal is being removed in the larder. The times quoted in the When and Where (an hour and 15 mins) from Best Practice relate to the green gralloch, thus the use of the term 'intact carcase'. If you've done the green gralloch in the field then taking the beast back to the larder to take out the pluck is perfectly feasible and might well be preferable, particularly in the situation related by basil.

Think about Scotland where a red deer is shot and the green gralloch done immediately - the pluck can be left in the beast until it is back in the larder, which can be several hours later. At least this is the case when I've stalked in Scotland the last 15 years.

willie_gunn
 
Last edited:

widows son

Well-Known Member
Stuart, had you only the gralloch to show you can take the beast to the AW and show him all the gralloch process, at his home ,ask him he'll tell you just as Ian and Wullie has put in black and white .

Scenario: Your out doing a level two stalk ,you stalk and shoot a deer but cannot find it, your witness has seen all the stalk, shot, the lot, has to leave allowing you to find the dead deer , He only has to see the gralloch ,you find the beast take it to him and show what is required . All elements of the stalk and level two criteria have been covered .
 

Mannlicher_Stu

Well-Known Member
Stuart, had you only the gralloch to show you can take the beast to the AW and show him all the gralloch process, at his home ,ask him he'll tell you just as Ian and Wullie has put in black and white .

Scenario: Your out doing a level two stalk ,you stalk and shoot a deer but cannot find it, your witness has seen all the stalk, shot, the lot, has to leave allowing you to find the dead deer , He only has to see the gralloch ,you find the beast take it to him and show what is required . All elements of the stalk and level two criteria have been covered .


I hear what you say Robert but what if when you get to find the beast and its suspected of any of the notifiable diseases is it good practice then to remove it from the scene.;) by taking it back to the DSC2 AW larder I think not.
Anthrax spores kill humans very quickly, if I came across a beast that I suspected of having anthrax I would not even touch it let alone do a gralloch on it and notify the state vet of its position.not only that I would also seek medical attention myself, I certainly would not be inclined to remove it or carry out any gralloch either in the field or in a larder. If I suspected it of having foot and mouth the carcass also would not be removed from the scene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-and-mouth_disease
 
Last edited:
Stoney Creek - Purpose Built Shooting Clothing
Top