Advice please. Electronic ear muffs

[Harv308]

I had a pair of MSA Sordin supreme for 8 years and they were great. They are now switching off when shooting so looked at a new pair. MSA and Sordin parted company a few years ago so if they MSA on them they are an old model.
I have bought a new pair of SWATCOM which are fab. They are made by Sordin for Talking Headsets. Worth a look

 

[Sharpie]

I have Peltor SportTac, for many years. Highly recommended. £100 + VAT or so. Noise reduction 26dB nominally, but I'll get into the details later.

They have two types of ProTac. The Protac3 line, comprising the Shooter and the Hunter. And the Protac2, which is different.

The Protac3 Shooter is a big clunky thing. But rated at 32db. I'd say ideal for RCOs etc, but not ideal for actually using in the field. £60 + VAT
The Protac3 Hunter is a slimmed down version of the above, sacrificing sound reduction, but not so badly, 26dB, same as the SportTac, similar size, but also only £60+VAT.

The Protac2 provides 32dB reduction, but in I think a slimmer package than the Protac3 Shooter. I've not handled a set so not quite sure. £100 +Vat, same as the SportTac.

MSA Sordin Supremes have only 19 dB noise reduction. Again, I will post facts and data below.

All the Peltors have audio input, for e.g. radios, dog trackers etc. Either by generic 3.5mm jack on the less expensive ones, or the better proprietary connector on the £100 upwards types. The proprietary cables cost extra, but aren't particularly expensive. They have generic ones, and ones dedicated for specific radios with the correct plug on the end for them.

Sordin Supremes also have a 3.5mm jack, and include a cable ending in a 3.5mm mono jack, which may or may not be directly usable with what you want to plug it into.

SportTacs run for 600 hours on 2 AAA cells.
Protac2s run for 270 hours on 2 AAs
Protac3s run for 100 hours on 2 AAs
Sordin don't appear to specify predicted run time (it all depends on usage of course)

TBH I think that the Peltor figures for Protacs are pessimistic, as they seem to be based on industrial protection headsets, used in continuous noisy environments where they might be expected to be working much harder than say the SporTacs would. I would expect, all things being equal, that AAs should last two or three times as long as AAAs. That said, my SporTacs last for ages.

Facts and data, from the manufacturers:

ProTac 3 (sketchy, but all that I could find):



SportTac:



ProTac 2:



Sordin Supreme Pro:



I think that is pretty conclusive.

So I would suggest a set of SportTacs for everyday shooting in the field.

Protac 2 for extensive range use, RCOing etc. Or the best for all uses. Same price as SportTacs but probably less sleek (as I said, I've not handled a set myself)

Or if on a budget, Protac 3s. Shooter for RCOing, Hunter for general use. Save £40 or so I suppose. Same performance but a bit less sophisticated.

If not bothered about actual published performance, the manufacturers' own data, then the Sordin Supreme Pros might do I suppose. But if you are going to buy something to actually protect your ears, why choose the least good option, at the highest price, based on data., not subjectivity ?

 

[Paul Balloch]

I’ve had a pair of peltors for ten years now and never had any problems with them can’t fault them

 

[Friendly Boar]

My Peltor sporttac are 9 years old, still performs excellently and I forget I have them on (very Comfortable). Batteries seem to last and last. Excellent noise reduction. If I needed to replace, I'd buy the same again.

 

[Foxyboy43]

I have Peltor SportTac, for many years. Highly recommended. £100 + VAT or so. Noise reduction 26dB nominally, but I'll get into the details later.

They have two types of ProTac. The Protac3 line, comprising the Shooter and the Hunter. And the Protac2, which is different.

The Protac3 Shooter is a big clunky thing. But rated at 32db. I'd say ideal for RCOs etc, but not ideal for actually using in the field. £60 + VAT
The Protac3 Hunter is a slimmed down version of the above, sacrificing sound reduction, but not so badly, 26dB, same as the SportTac, similar size, but also only £60+VAT.

The Protac2 provides 32dB reduction, but in I think a slimmer package than the Protac3 Shooter. I've not handled a set so not quite sure. £100 +Vat, same as the SportTac.

MSA Sordin Supremes have only 19 dB noise reduction. Again, I will post facts and data below.

All the Peltors have audio input, for e.g. radios, dog trackers etc. Either by generic 3.5mm jack on the less expensive ones, or the better proprietary connector on the £100 upwards types. The proprietary cables cost extra, but aren't particularly expensive. They have generic ones, and ones dedicated for specific radios with the correct plug on the end for them.

Sordin Supremes also have a 3.5mm jack, and include a cable ending in a 3.5mm mono jack, which may or may not be directly usable with what you want to plug it into.

SportTacs run for 600 hours on 2 AAA cells.
Protac2s run for 270 hours on 2 AAs
Protac3s run for 100 hours on 2 AAs
Sordin don't appear to specify predicted run time (it all depends on usage of course)

TBH I think that the Peltor figures for Protacs are pessimistic, as they seem to be based on industrial protection headsets, used in continuous noisy environments where they might be expected to be working much harder than say the SporTacs would. I would expect, all things being equal, that AAs should last two or three times as long as AAAs. That said, my SporTacs last for ages.

Facts and data, from the manufacturers:

ProTac 3 (sketchy, but all that I could find):

View attachment 229275

SportTac:

View attachment 229277

ProTac 2:

View attachment 229278

Sordin Supreme Pro:

View attachment 229279

I think that is pretty conclusive.

So I would suggest a set of SportTacs for everyday shooting in the field.

Protac 2 for extensive range use, RCOing etc. Or the best for all uses. Same price as SportTacs but probably less sleek (as I said, I've not handled a set myself)

Or if on a budget, Protac 3s. Shooter for RCOing, Hunter for general use. Save £40 or so I suppose. Same performance but a bit less sophisticated.

If not bothered about actual published performance, the manufacturers' own data, then the Sordin Supreme Pros might do I suppose. But if you are going to buy something to actually protect your ears, why choose the least good option, at the highest price, based on data., not subjectivity ?

Phew! That has got to be the winner of “Best reply ever”. Very informative - much obliged sir.

 

[Tazz]

MSA sordins are very good - not sure about the rating though.

And another vote for MSA Sordins quality product I have 3 pairs

 

[big ears]

Peltor sportac are great. If you are at the range then you can put a foam ear plug in underneath for extra protection.

 

[LarryLightFoot]

You can get the make your own ear mould ones on Shamazon for approx. £12 and they will add an extra layer of protection underneath the Peltor’s that’s what I’m going to be doing . I use them when riding my motorbike and they keep the noise levels way down .

 

[Sharpie]

Peltor sportac are great. If you are at the range then you can put a foam ear plug in underneath for extra protection.

Yes, that's what I do. With SportTacs you can wind up the volume to give you "bionic ears", better than normal, most useful when stalking. On the range, with plugs in as well, the same setting lets you hear fairly normally. Their companding circuitry and impulse noise cut-off seems to work seamlessly and instantaneously.

I can't speak as to how well other brands can do this.

On a basic observation, very slimline shells, whilst being attractive and convenient, must introduce compromises. Particularly when they are mostly flat. Sordin appear to have only the one shell moulding, which they use across their range, and perhaps have reached the limitations of what that is capable of. Basically 18dB reduction. Perhaps they might need to invest in something better, if they want to keep up, never mind exceed what other makes can already do.

Regarding headline figures, there is a massive difference between say 18, 26 and 32 dB noise reduction, as to potential hearing damage.

 

[Tazz]

I have Peltor SportTac, for many years. Highly recommended. £100 + VAT or so. Noise reduction 26dB nominally, but I'll get into the details later.

They have two types of ProTac. The Protac3 line, comprising the Shooter and the Hunter. And the Protac2, which is different.

The Protac3 Shooter is a big clunky thing. But rated at 32db. I'd say ideal for RCOs etc, but not ideal for actually using in the field. £60 + VAT
The Protac3 Hunter is a slimmed down version of the above, sacrificing sound reduction, but not so badly, 26dB, same as the SportTac, similar size, but also only £60+VAT.

The Protac2 provides 32dB reduction, but in I think a slimmer package than the Protac3 Shooter. I've not handled a set so not quite sure. £100 +Vat, same as the SportTac.

MSA Sordin Supremes have only 19 dB noise reduction. Again, I will post facts and data below.

All the Peltors have audio input, for e.g. radios, dog trackers etc. Either by generic 3.5mm jack on the less expensive ones, or the better proprietary connector on the £100 upwards types. The proprietary cables cost extra, but aren't particularly expensive. They have generic ones, and ones dedicated for specific radios with the correct plug on the end for them.

Sordin Supremes also have a 3.5mm jack, and include a cable ending in a 3.5mm mono jack, which may or may not be directly usable with what you want to plug it into.

SportTacs run for 600 hours on 2 AAA cells.
Protac2s run for 270 hours on 2 AAs
Protac3s run for 100 hours on 2 AAs
Sordin don't appear to specify predicted run time (it all depends on usage of course)

TBH I think that the Peltor figures for Protacs are pessimistic, as they seem to be based on industrial protection headsets, used in continuous noisy environments where they might be expected to be working much harder than say the SporTacs would. I would expect, all things being equal, that AAs should last two or three times as long as AAAs. That said, my SporTacs last for ages.

Facts and data, from the manufacturers:

ProTac 3 (sketchy, but all that I could find):

View attachment 229275

SportTac:

View attachment 229277

ProTac 2:

View attachment 229278

Sordin Supreme Pro:

View attachment 229279

I think that is pretty conclusive.

So I would suggest a set of SportTacs for everyday shooting in the field.

Protac 2 for extensive range use, RCOing etc. Or the best for all uses. Same price as SportTacs but probably less sleek (as I said, I've not handled a set myself)

Or if on a budget, Protac 3s. Shooter for RCOing, Hunter for general use. Save £40 or so I suppose. Same performance but a bit less sophisticated.

If not bothered about actual published performance, the manufacturers' own data, then the Sordin Supreme Pros might do I suppose. But if you are going to buy something to actually protect your ears, why choose the least good option, at the highest price, based on data., not subjectivity ?

I think this wins “Factual Answer of the Week” compared to some of the opinion only rambles we read on here ( some of which are mine)

 

[Alantoo]

I use the 3M Peltor LEP 100 in ear electronic plugs which have a higher SNR rating than any of their over ear muffs at 37dB with the skull screw tips...I use the smaller foam tips which are rated at around 35dB SNR...they do a similar SNR protection EEP100 now with a simpler case for about £130

The big advantage I find is that they can be left in all day, you never get caught out by an unexpected shot close to, and other advantages like if you are beside some anti social type with a muzzle brake at the range you can easily increase your protection with over ear muffs...can't protect against the buffet though

If I need extra protection...unmoderated or muzzle brake reports are bounced back at you in the old railway tunnel range, I use them with a pair of unbranded Howard Leight type slim electronic over ear muffs bought from the Shooting Show which add around 25dB SNR

Alan

 

[Oats-1983]

Another recommendation for Peltor SportTac.

 

[disco_ike]

I have 3m Peltor sportac electronics that I use for some of my shooting and I have 3m Comtac when I am out with cadets and on military ranges.

The MOD utilises the ComTac and they are a bit more expensive than the sportac for the extra cost I have never noticed enough of a difference when firing .308s even on the indoor range or with HME. I think the real difference would come in on days when you are firing the bigger stuff.

 

[Alantoo]

MSA Sordin Supremes have only 19 dB noise reduction. Again, I will post facts and data below.

The 19dB in the chart is a NRR which is the USA system, it is vaguely equivalent to our 25dB SNR.


Alan

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

I use the 3M Peltor in ear electronic plugs which have a higher SNR rating than any of their over ear muffs at 37dB with the skull screw tips...I use the smaller foam tips which are rated at around
35dB SNR...

These ones - 3M™ Peltor™ EEP-100 EU Electronic Earplug Kit ?

 

[Alantoo]

These ones - 3M™ Peltor™ EEP-100 EU Electronic Earplug Kit ?

Yes. As far as I can tell the EEP plugs are identical to my LEP100s apart from shell colour. The difference between them and my December 2017 LEP 100s is that mine came with an unused ('cos they stay in fine) neck cord, and my carry case incorporated a 3 x AA battery compartment and the electronics for recharging on the go, the EEP case just has the micro USB charging socket. I have never used the battery facility either...the Li-ion batteries run for 15 or so hours and I either charge them with a USB lead in the car or from the mains overnight...you could always carry a USB battery pack if you were off grid for a few days.

They obviously provide the 37dB SNR as passive plugs if the batteries do ever run down on you...you just would not have the advantage of being able to amplify ambient sounds up to 85dB. I find that amplification facility is great to make you tread lightly...amplified crunching leaves makes you really aware of blundering about when stalking!

One of the other advantages is that you can wear the plugs with any hat you fancy...over-ear muffs and a wide brimmed Akubra do not work well together!



I bought mine from Amazon for £210 plus VAT and bought the foam tips from Earshot Communications who have been consistently low on price for the ear plugs both LEP ad EEP...currently £125 Plus VAT for the EEP version.

3M PELTOR Electronic Earplug EEP-100 EU - Earshot Communications

Alan

 

[Sharpie]

The 19dB in the chart is a NRR which is the USA system, it is vaguely equivalent to our 25dB SNR.


Alan

There is no direct equivalence. Besides such tests are more aimed at industrial hearing protection, in the presence of continuous broad spectrum noise. Not including impulse effects.

The sort of thing that e.g. industrial Peltor active earplugs are purposed towards. Tested under ideal conditions. They certainly would be of no use to me, for anatomical reasons, post radical ear surgery. Not related to noise exposure. I would need custom moulds, such as I have in my hearing aids (moderate to severe hearing loss, so I am understandably a bit precious about preserving what's left, so am interested in the technicalities)

Other commentators, such as SNR vs. NRR - Ear Defender Ratings Explained suggest that you might see the two as being perhaps 3dB apart.. So say an 18dB NRR (Sordin) might be something like 21dB SNR. If so, still a big gap between that and say the 26dB Peltor SNR statements. Stepping on up to e.g. 32 dB SNR muffs is something of interest, at least to me.

Nevertheless, in the USA, 3M quote the SportTac as having an NRR of 20 dB. Still a couple of dB better than 18 dB NRR Sordin Supreme Pros. Not much, but it's logarithmic. But not so far apart either. Probably indistinguishable in the real world, equally as good maybe. Then take a look at the detailed numbers, particularly the SDs, and quibbling about a couple of dBs, for their samples, in a controlled test environment, might suggest that such details are "lost in the noise", so to speak

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/cbgnar2352/

Quite how that equates to the characteristics of e.g. rifle or shotgun fire, or how to measure it, is the subject of continuing research. Mainly by the military. This sort of thing: Cumulative noise exposure model for outdoor shooting ranges Precise measurement of it requires specialised instrumentation far beyond what ordinary sound meters are capable of., or the broad-brush approach of SNR or NRR approaches.

Peltor, in Europe,, quote SNR, the EU standard, supposed to be independently tested.

Sordin quote NRR, which they may test themselves.

What else can they do, since there are no accepted public standards or test methods for shooting ear protection. Just as assessing the performance of moderators also seems somewhat arbitrary.

In the real world we have a wide choice of protection, marketed for shooting use. Objectivity, subjectivity, comfort, fashion, marketing, economics are all in play here. I don't pretend to have the all the answers as to the usual "what is the best" question. It depends.

BTW using earplugs under muffs is not a simple additive calculation, e.g. add the headline dB reductions together. Far from it. Sound pressure level doesn't work that way. The total result will be much less, but still worthwhile.

I have no skin in this game, other than to observe that there is a wide variation in the published performance of hearing protection purposed towards shooting applications. I have presented some manufacturer's data, with my personal interpretation. That's all.

 

[Alantoo]

There is no direct equivalence.

Hence why I said vaguely equivalent...I was pointing out the reason for the difference in the figures of 19dB to 25dB of apparently similarly designed ear muffs.

My point was that for comparative purposes one either should use NRR or SNR, rather than mixing numbers from the two systems

However, if you look at UK sources of MSA Sordin Supreme Pro they do specify 25dB SNR which presumably are independently tested and thus equivalent to the 25dB Peltor muffs.

Sordin 75302-X/L-14-S Supreme Pro X Orange (Ember) Earshell Leather Headband Foam Earpads - Earshot Communications

Sordin Supreme Pro-X Ember is developed to conform to international MIL-specifications and other extreme conditions. Excellent digital sound reproduction. New 2025 SNR/NNR The Sordin Supreme Pro-X Ember are hearing protectors that reproduce a natural and realistic sound. You should have perfect...

www.earshotcommunications.co.uk

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/MSA-Sordin-Supreme-PRO-Professional/dp/B018GKEXYO/ref=sr_1_1?crid=99J535MVMVU2&keywords=msa+sordin+supreme+pro&qid=1636664670&sprefix=MSA+Sordin+supreme%2Caps%2C148&sr=8-1

Besides such tests are more aimed at industrial hearing protection, in the presence of continuous broad spectrum noise. Not including impulse effects.

I am not sure that is the case..many industries are all about impulse noises so I cannot believe they would not be considered for any rating system. My power hammers for instance run at 220, 165 and 135 bpm, they are all about impact. The air pulse of the 150kg hammer is enough to vibrate a 3metre square pair of 75mm thick doors...12mm Birch multi-ply clad on a 50mm hollow section frame cavity solid filled with plasterboard...at 135ppm. And that is even after I modified it with an exhaust / inlet plenum chamber. Plenty of impulse effect there!

On earlier threads regarding hearing protection I have posted some links to papers I found on protection from gunshot from a military perspective which may be of interest to you, and I would be interested to hear your take on them. They were focussed on the transfer of sound via air, tissue or bone and mainly concluded that the deep seated foam plugs provided more protection than either over ear muffs or the shallower seated bespoke moulded type...which is born out by the SNR numbers...I shall enjoy reading the one you posted, thank you.

Alan

digital custom in ear protection

Having had several custom moulded fit ear protection over the years in planning and upgrading to digital,im looking for anyone with real time experience and recommendation with digital in ear protection (not interested in over ear units),i will be purely using these for clay shooting, i dont...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

Active ear defenders - Cens alternatives?

Big cans are perfect for clays, but for stalking and walked up I thought I'd try 'in ear' active ear defenders, however I'm thoroughly fed up with my Cens Pro Flex ear defenders. Despite spending a small fortune on them in 2015, I've never got on really well with them - Fiddly, no proper on...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

 

[Alantoo]

Stepping on up to e.g. 32 dB SNR muffs is something of interest, at least to me.

And to me, which is why I went up to the 35dB SNR of the Peltor LEP-100s

Alan

 

[Sharpie]

I have not (yet) dug deep into your references.

But on initial observation, I do have some alternative thoughts about the transmission mechanisms for noise, either down the ear canal to the eardrum,, through the ossicular chain, to the cocjleal via the oval window. Or directly through the skull to the cochlea.

Then there is the transmission mechanism, through the mouth, via the eustachian tubes, to the inside of the eardrum, and so on. One of the reasons why we hear our own voices differently than others do, indeed it can be a surprise to hear your own voice, on recordings.

I have been advised, by my consultant, to always keep my mouth closed when shooting, to minimise transmission via this pathway.

I suppose that I am a bit special, having had extensive ear surgery, radical mastoidectomies, an attempt at ossicular chain reconstruction in one ear, subsequently re-done by fusing all the pieces together, quite successfully. But in the other ear it was an "everything out" job, for the middle ear. Totally deaf for six months, but recovered afterwards by eardrum reconstruction and ossiculoplasty, basically a peg between the new eardrum and the oval window. Rather delicate, took three goes to get it to work, and it has since needed attention more than once, and can still play up from time to time. Heavy colds are a nightmare. Sometimes it just goes, but recovers afterwards. It is delicate, and I do everything I can to protect it, including inserting a custom moulded insert into it when shooting. The other ear gets a good earplug. Muffs (currently SportTacs) on top.

My point being that I have large conduction losses on both ears, yet my cochleas are still intact. This shows up on the audiograms as what they call the "air gap", between what is measured through headphones into my lugholes, and what is measured using a bone conduction transducer applied to my skull. That being far superior.

It is easy enough to do in the ear measurements with my custom moulded hearing aids in situ, a very fine probe is put alongside them whilst they are in place, which measures the sound more or less at the eardrum. My custom moulds leave only a few mm gap before the eardrum, nominally about 3-4mm. This is done to tune up my aids for best performance, taking into account what's actually going on inside, the starting point being the standard audiogram from the headphones.

I think that this is what serious researchers also do, to quantify hearing protection properties via the air route. But AFAIK they can't measure the transmission through the skull bones, so that has to be pretty much ignored. Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen though, just too difficult to measure.

The custom fitted hearing aid moulds have a high degree of attenuation, but for hearing aid purposes also have to be vented (a tiny hole all the way through), to deal with the "occlusion factor", I won't go into details, its complicated.

Anyway, point being that, for me, transmission through my skull direct to the cochlea, is a significant input. Certainly I cannot cover my entire head in a soundproof box, but at least my muffs cover most of my mastoid processes. Which I think is better than just using earplugs, passive or active, with off the shelf tips, fitting tightly and deep, or not so much so.

I can get the Peltors on over my hearing aids, but it's a bit finnicky. Plugging my ears is much easier, and with the Peltors at max volume very workable.

Regarding impulse noise, the SNR and NNR tests do measure the effectiveness across a range of frequencies. In detail, then summarised into low, medium, high. Your room shaking power hammers I would guess are kicking out at low frequencies. Where a detailed look at the SNR/NRR tables might show rather little attenuation. I dunno how normal shooting noise compares, but certainly something like an effectively braked full bore rifle, even in a magnum chambering, is extremely violent, felt throughout my body, which I think indicates huge low frequency effects, with significant energy. I try to avoid being anywhere near to that.