Afghanistan (caliphate 2?)

tozzybum

Well-Known Member
Is it me or has the yanks legging it from Afghanistan so demoralised the AnA that all their equipment is heading straight for its intended target 🤔
All the video footage showing wholesale surrender of units is Iraq all over again.
I hope the career politicians that resided over this fiasco are ready for the upsurge in attacks on the west .
But I doubt it as of course a politician that admits mistakes is as rare as my hair .
 

caberslash

Well-Known Member
At least the Soviet Union stated their intention was to stay and make sure Afghanistan developed into a good little satellite state.

Shame the Americans decided it would be a neat idea to give the Mujahedeen some Stinger missiles. They even sent John Rambo to win the war single handed.

Charlie Wilson's War is a good movie to watch, starring Tom Hanks as the namesake. The film was supposed to end with a cut to footage of 9/11 and Americans in (then present-day) Afghanistan but that got pulled.
 

Pete1774

Well-Known Member
Like most wars the USA have been involved in it once again became just a weapons testing area. Tests completed; time to go home and leave the locals to sort out the mess.
 

topscots1

Well-Known Member
A lot of American blaming, Afghanistan was a multinational fiasco. Including the U.K. we turned and left, the same as Iraq abounding our once allies to failure and death. No one will trust us or the west again. It is a shambolic pitiful state of affairs, foreign policy controlled by the media to the detriment of those that stood up to help us as the liberators.

Iraq we should not have turned and abandoned the people, Iranian influence did and still does keep the Iraqis on the knee.

Afghanistan is a divided tribal community, no one cares who the government are or what they say. They care about the crops they grow and feeding the family. Thousands of ten dollar Taliban have died whilst the hierarchy has changed and developed, they will strike out attacks in the west will rise.

Those people if an extremist ideology need an outlet somewhere to strike at the western “ Kaffirs”. Remove that and they will seek it out elsewhere.

The one saving grace is the Chinese want the minerals, they may go in to Afghanistan and do so in force.

Militarily both campaigns were resounding victories the failures lie at the door of. DFID and the FCO career politicians and bureaucrats, attempting to influence villages and towns they had never seen.

The U.K. and US should hang their heads in Shame today.
 

NullMac

Well-Known Member
what a shambles, how many dead and injured for what?
Revenge for 2,977 deaths. Killing OBL; ****ing up Al Qaeda; sending a message that when the US says hand them over or we will come get them, they mean it.

The politicians decision to turn Afghanistan into a western oriented democracy was, as with all politicians bright ideas, bollocks.
 

Tazz

Well-Known Member
History shows us that there have been a number of “occupying “ forces that have gone in to Afghanistan in the last few hundred years and they all retreat in some state of defeat eventually some just take longer than others. The other issue is that in the west we arrogantly think that “democracy” is the way to go and the panacea for all problems and for countries with little history of democracy it rarely works out have a look at most of Africa and parts of the Middle East where we tried it. Afghanistan will quickly slip back in to War Lords and fiefdoms using the kit we all sent over there
 
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Finch

Well-Known Member
History shows us that there have been a number of “occupying “ forces that have gone in to Afghanistan in the last few hundred years and they all retreat in some state of defeat eventually some just take longer than others. The other issue is that in the west we arrogantly think that “democracy” is the way to go and the panacea for all problems and for countries with little history of democracy it rarely works out have a look at most of Africa and parts of the Middle East where we tried it. Afghanistan will quickly slip back in to War Lords and fiefdoms using the kit we all sent over there
Afghanistan, like Iraq, is an artificial country with arbitrary borders drawn up between former imperial rulers and tribal chieftains. As such it has always been utterly dysfunctional as a nation state and will never be governable except by an iron fist.
 

Apthorpe

Well-Known Member
History shows us that there have been a number of “occupying “ forces that have gone in to Afghanistan in the last few hundred years and they all retreat in some state of defeat eventually some just take longer than others. The other issue is that in the west we arrogantly think that “democracy” is the way to go and the panacea for all problems and for countries with little history of democracy it rarely works out have a look at most of Africa and parts of the Middle East where we tried it. Afghanistan will quickly slip back in to War Lords and fiefdoms using the kit we all sent over there
The conclusion is certainly true, but I don't agree with the premise of the first sentence. One could say the same about dozens of other countries e.g. the Netherlands. The fact that they subsequently retreat is only a comment on the worthlessness of the place. The problems with democracy in non-British countries are, more often than not, not that democracy doesn't work or that, for some unspecified reason, the locals prefer something else. The problem is that these areas are sh!tholes and there is NO form of government that works. The rejection of colonialism IS the problem.
In Iraq and Afghanistan, the population did not decide that they didn't like democracy, the problem is that the institutions that form a necessary framework for any effective government were absent or corrupt. It's incorrect to subscribe to the idea that we in the West are arrogant to think that democracy is the way to go. The same problems were encountered across all those areas when they tried to install any alternative form of government too - whether Leninism, Marxism, absolute monarchy, military dictatorship, or technocracy. Democracy still remains the best form of government yet discovered. it is unhelpful both to those other countries and to our own to subscribe to (largely communist) theories that there is something wrong with democracy - or capitalism for that matter.
Our problem and theirs is that the underlying institutions are rotten. We have tolerated a very serious descent in the quality of our institutions over the past 30 years. Erosions of civil liberties, expansions of government and even corporate surveillance, erosion of judicial rights, the catastrophic institutional incompetence of our civil service and public sectors - leading to a continual toll of thousands of deaths per year, a Home Office which is unable to perform almost any of its functions properly, a Foreign Office which thinks its job is to work for foreigners, a military unfit for purpose with neither manpower nor equipment to defend the country, secret services which think they should be broadcasting on social media, staffed by people who think whistleblowing is acceptable, police and justice departments who are unfit for purpose, a department of education which thinks it is OK for teachers to be semi-literate and inarticulate, etc...I'll stop here.
 

Apthorpe

Well-Known Member
A lot of American blaming, Afghanistan was a multinational fiasco. Including the U.K. we turned and left, the same as Iraq abounding our once allies to failure and death. No one will trust us or the west again. It is a shambolic pitiful state of affairs, foreign policy controlled by the media to the detriment of those that stood up to help us as the liberators.

Iraq we should not have turned and abandoned the people, Iranian influence did and still does keep the Iraqis on the knee.

Afghanistan is a divided tribal community, no one cares who the government are or what they say. They care about the crops they grow and feeding the family. Thousands of ten dollar Taliban have died whilst the hierarchy has changed and developed, they will strike out attacks in the west will rise.

Those people if an extremist ideology need an outlet somewhere to strike at the western “ Kaffirs”. Remove that and they will seek it out elsewhere.

The one saving grace is the Chinese want the minerals, they may go in to Afghanistan and do so in force.

Militarily both campaigns were resounding victories the failures lie at the door of. DFID and the FCO career politicians and bureaucrats, attempting to influence villages and towns they had never seen.

The U.K. and US should hang their heads in Shame today.

The problem with that view is that the UK doesn't have a viable military. In the absence of American logistics and hardware, neither we, nor any other NATO military, can stay anywhere at effective force levels.

The argument that Afghans were ever going to attack us in the West is as spurious today as it always has been. It is neither credible nor backed up by any cogent body of evidence. Far more British citizens have been killed and maimed by us invading Afghanistan than have been harmed by Islamist terrorists here. The same applies to Iraq.

If we were going to go into those places, the only sane strategies were A) decapitate the regime and leave, B) colonialism. The problem was pretending there was some wishy-washy alternative that civil servants and nobody else believed in.

DFID is and always has been staffed by naive idiots, and the FCO have been useless for decades - operating in an imaginary world.
 

topscots1

Well-Known Member
The problem with that view is that the UK doesn't have a viable military. In the absence of American logistics and hardware, neither we, nor any other NATO military, can stay anywhere at effective force levels.

The argument that Afghans were ever going to attack us in the West is as spurious today as it always has been. It is neither credible nor backed up by any cogent body of evidence. Far more British citizens have been killed and maimed by us invading Afghanistan than have been harmed by Islamist terrorists here. The same applies to Iraq.

If we were going to go into those places, the only sane strategies were A) decapitate the regime and leave, B) colonialism. The problem was pretending there was some wishy-washy alternative that civil servants and nobody else believed in.

DFID is and always has been staffed by naive idiots, and the FCO have been useless for decades - operating in an imaginary world.

The problem is not the Afghans attacking us in the west. On the whole the Afghans do not care. The problem comes with the travelling foreign fighters looking to strike out for the cause. Getting to Afghanistan to attack the westerner was the in thing. Now that option has been removed. Somewhere else might appear as the in thing. My money is on Mali as U.K. troop numbers increase. However the easy option is an attack on U.K. soil.

We will see which option pans out. The real issue is the betrayal of those Afghans that were foolish enough to work with us. They now on the whole will be executed. Whilst the world watches.

As for the logistics, I wholeheartedly agree the U.K. military struggles to maintain any form of operational tempo at stretch without support. This is an issue for all NATO allies, one which Trump liked to complain about. However the Americans like us all being reliant up on them. A situation which does nothing for a “partnership”
 
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