Africa 2009

mack

Well-Known Member
#1
Hi all, this is the info sp4rkmans' outfitter in S. Africa, Hilton, provided, any one else interested? It would bring the costs down considerably to go in a small group.

Mpumalanga Province. (between the towns of Piet Retief and Pongola)

Duration: 5 to 10 days.(between 28th/09/2008 and 05/09/2008 or in 2009).

Daily Rate: As per attached Tariff Sheet.

Transfers: JHB Int' Airport to hunting area return f500-00/party.

Cull Species: Blessbuck females max 10 to 20/party of 2 f120-00ea.
Blue Wildebeest females max 10/party of 2 f300-00ea.
Black wildebeest females max 10/party of 2 f300-00ea.

Please note: All prices quoted in Pounds Sterling.
Trophy animals can be added to the above species as well as the species listed below-
at normal rates from the attached Price Sheet.
Impala, Kudu, Zebra, Eland, Waterbuck, Grey Duiker, Red Hartebeest, Giraffe, Bushpig,
Mountain Reedbuck, Caracal, Jackal, Large Spotted Genet.

General: If I was coming to Africa for my first time this is where I would come!
You will be accommodated in a beautiful bush camp situated half the way up the mountain.
This camp is very well equipped with hot and cold running water, a fully equipped kitchen, and
-you will sleep in secure brick under thatch chalets with bathroom en suite.
The terrain is hilly to mountainous with beautiful bushy valleys and savanna to open
-grassland plates.
Both the Pongola River and the Wit River (Mkunyane in Zulu, this is also the name of the
- concession) flow through the concession.
You will see, smell, hear, feel and love Africa for ever if you start your safari career here!



UK PRICE & TARRIFF SHEET

Daily Rates:
f 240-00/hunter/day (1x1).
f 190 -00/hunter/day (2x1).
f 130-00/observer/day.

Daily Rate Includes:
All meals and accommodation.
Services of licensed Hunting Outfitter and PH’s.
Services of both camp and field staff.
Hunt transport in fully equipped 4x4s.
Field preparation of trophies, (capeing, salting, tagging and cleaning of skulls).

Daily Rate Excludes;
Pre and post hunt transportation.
Air or road transfers.
Trophy fees.
Taxidermy costs.
Alcohol and tobacco.
Gratuities to staff.

Trophy Fees:
Elephant P.O.A.
Rhino P.O.A.
Hippo P.O.A.
Buffalo P.O.A.
Lion P.O.A.
Leopard P.O.A.
Crocodile P.O.A.

African Wildcat f 150-00.
Caracal f 550-00.
Genet, (large and small spotted) f 50-00.
Serval f 1 000-00.

Cape Fox f 100-00.
Black Backed Jackal f 50-00.
Side Stripped Jackal f 200-00.
Spotted Hyena P.O.A.
Brown Hyena P.O.A.

Blessbuck – Common f 200-00.
White f 400-00.
Bushbuck f 400-00.
Bushpig f 250-00.
Cape Grysbuck f 550-00.
Duiker – Blue f 55 0-00.
Grey f 100-00.
Red f  550-00.
Eland f 1 500-00.
Gemsbuck f 1 000-00.
Giraffe f 2 500-00.
Impala f  200-00.
Klipspringer f 600-00.
Kudu f 900-00.
Nyala f 1 200-00.
Oribi f 1 200-00.
Red Haartebees f 550-00.
Red Lechwe f 1 800-00.
Reedbuck – Common f 420-00.
Mountain f 420-00.
Roan P.O.A.
Springbuck – Common f 200-00.
Copper f 450-00.
Black f 600-00.
White f 1 000-00.
Sable P.O.A.
Steenbuck f 300-00.
Suni f 1 500-00.
Tsessebe f 2 000-00.
Waterbuck f 1 100-00.
Warthog f 140-00.
Wildebees – Black f 550-00.
Blue f 550-00.
Vaal Rhebuck f 850-00.
Zebra, (Burchells) f 850-00.


Please note we offer all of the species legally hunt able in both Namibia & Mozambique.

Hilton Gary Sanders.
Licensed Hunting Outfitter & PH.
Member of PHASA.
Member of Arkansas State Houndsman and Hunters Association.
Official Measurer for Rowland Ward Publications.
Diploma in Agriculture, Cedara.
Outdoor Writer and Journalist.
 

shakari

Well-Known Member
#2
Hope you don't mind my pointing out that area isn't in Mpumalanga, it's in Kwa Zulu Natal. - formally known as Zululand :)
 

legaleagle69

Well-Known Member
#3
Hi Mack

I think the original idea was to try and avoid paying any trophy fees and just go for a fun hunt, meat animals? rather than out and out trophy species. As you can get a much better rate same as the SA hunters do if you are a bit sharp.
Sp4rkman told me the problem lies with the farmers getting windy as a big group of foriegn hunters have to use a PH as a guide.. suppose insurance rifle import etc
What I had suggested was maybe we could find a part time guy who wasn't really in as a business, we could "hire" him on a daily flat rate between the group to take us round the farms ..
Maybe this isn't going to be possible but I know for sure there is know way I can afford to pay trophy fees.
 

mack

Well-Known Member
#4
Africa

Hi Legal
I agree with you on all counts, I think two or three could get away with not having an outfitter, poss as sp4kmans guests, but no larger.
Hilton did include cull fees, ther'e on my previous post, Cull Species: Blessbuck females max 10 to 20/party of 2 f120-00ea.
Blue Wildebeest females max 10/party of 2 f300-00ea.
Black wildebeest females max 10/party of 2 f300-00ea.
But he seems expensive elsewhere.

Please check these links out and comment, I think if we go in a group we will need a PH especially if we wanna take are own rifles.

http://www.affordableafricanhunting.com/

http://www.umlilosafaris.co.za/price list2.htm

http://www.umlilosafaris.co.za/
 

shakari

Well-Known Member
#5
Guys,

although I'm qualified to operate in SA, I don't usually do much hunting here because I'm too busy in Tanzania and elsewhere....... but I'll tell you what the situation is and then leave you to make up your own minds. - Either way, it's no skin off my nose.

To import a rifle into SA you need to supply the cops with the name, PH number and contact details of your PH, the name, outfitter number and contact details of your outfitter - both of whom have to be licenced to operate in the province you intend to hunt. You also need a letter or invitation from the landowner and a few other pieces of paper. Only if you supply those details will you be allowed to import your rifles.

Once you've got 'em in, if you get caught hunting illegally, which includes hunting without the right paperwork or without a PH, you face almost certain confiscation of all equipment used during the hunt, which includes rifles and vehicles etc, fines and possible, though unlikely jail time....... in an African jail. The person supplying the hunt faces equally severe punishment.

Although some of this hasn't been made public yet, SA will be changing a lot of their game and hunting laws in the next year or so, including changing PH qualification/examination time from less than 2 weeks to a year or so. As part of that, they intend to crack down on anyone caught breaking the rules............. so be warned!

Frankly, if you shop round, you'll be able to get a group deal where you'll pay less than UKP150 a day plus trophy fees without any ducking and diving anyway, so why take the chance of ending up in the brown stuff............. If you opt to hunt females and young males you'll get cheaper trophy fees.

I don't know who this Sp4rkman is or where he comes from but believe me, if he's telling you that you can hunt without a PH, outfitter or correct paperwork etc. - at best, he's shooting you a line and and at worst he's talking bollocks that'll do nothing but drop you in the ****.
 

mack

Well-Known Member
#6
africa

Hi Shakari
thanks for the info. I realise most cull or non-trophy hunting is in S.A. or to a lesser degree in Namibia, I guess this is due to the 'game-farms'.
I believe what puts most people off of trophys if not only the higher fees but the added cost of shipping and taxidermy. Could you give us an idea of how much a basic set of horns would cost shipping wise.
Thanks
Mack
 

sp4rkman

Well-Known Member
#7
Hi Shakari,

When the subject first came up i said i might be able to take one or 2 guys out hunting on friends farms. If you browse around the forum you will find that a few guys have already done this type of trip before. i did state they would not be able to bring rifles into the country as i know the legal requirements of firearm importation. I offered them use of my rifle and as i'd be hunting too I didnt see it as being a major problem. However, i spoke to the farmers and most of them were not keen on allowing this as they know the Governments rules. Hence why i provided the contact details of a PH/Outfitter friend who would be able to put something together. If you read my post you'll see just this mentioned.

In fact, you probably know this PH...

However, a farmer friend who merely has game on his property would allow 1 or 2 people to hunt on his farm with me. It wouldn't be a "safari" or a professional trip in anyway.

So, as you can see I am not "shooting them a line" or trying to "drop people into the ****". I was merely trying to help people avoid the high rates PH's/Outfitters charge and allow them to experience Africa.

If i've mislead anyone then i apologise.

sp4rkman
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
#8
Gentlemen I do not see anyone trying to drop anyone in the ****!!

I know there are many on here that would jump at the opportunity to go to Africa, and most are not high paying American or Spanish clients Shakari. But as I said from the very first inception of this trip you will need to be invited to hunt and have a registered Outfitter or PH to meet you at the airport if you are taking firearms. It will save alot of problems, and thats the last thing you need after 11 hours on a plane, believe me!! and I am sure the thought of an overnight stay in an African jail does not appeal to anyone either :eek:

Now I have not been back to Africa for about 4 years, and things have changed, some of it not for the best in my opinion. For one they are pricing themselves out of the game for many folk to hunt, and in SA the importation of FA has become much more difficult, with dare I say it bribes even being asked.

If you all decide to go I suggest you find an agent to help you with details regarding FA importation. Also if you decide to have any mounts done in SA make sure you get the complete price including freight back. If you decide to bring them back and have any mounted here, make sure you know something about the taxidermist. Sometime back many of the taxidermists in Africa were becoming an issue, they were fixing the skins in Formaldehyde, rendering them useless. You will never rehydrate the skin, therefore they are unworkable. You are better of getting your work done in the UK, although there are very good Taxidermists in SA, they are not to me the most consistent of people, and as a Taxidermist of 34 years and running hunts to Africa and other parts of the world for 26 years I speak from experience.

Good luck.
 

shakari

Well-Known Member
#9
Shipping trophies is gonna depend largely on what you ship and everything will have to go through a dip and pack process first at least. Alternatively, you could have the work done here and then shipped. - If you ship dipped and packed (raw) trophies to the UK, you can expect a headache or two. New regs have made it highly likely you'll have problems with the vet inspector at Heathrow. - If there is a problem, then you have two options. Either pay for the shipment to be returned to Africa and then back again or have the trophies destroyed. These new regs are a joke, but a very expensive joke and they've been driving me nucking futs this year. If you want an idea of dip and pack or total taxidermy and shipping etc, you can do no better than contact Lifeform Taxidermy at www.lifeform.co.za. They're only up the road from me, and they're one of the very best taxidermists in Africa and probably the world. If you don't want taxidermy done, then don't bother.............

Regarding the rest of it........... Sure some people do get through the legal net, but if you get caught, both the hunters and the landowners are in serious hot water and my advice would be not to try it........ but hey, I'm not the internet police and you're all big boys and in charge of your own destiny. - you can do what you like... it's certainly none of my business. It hadn't occurred to me before, but in these days of instant world wide communication, it wouldn't suprise me in the least that if you did get caught and prosecuted, the SAPS might well pass that info onto the UK cops......... which might possibly affect your UK FAC status. Maybe some legal eagle out there could comment on that?

Sp4rkman,

Reading your post, I see it looks like you were just passing info on, but believe me, whoever told you it'd be possible for you to hunt 'on tne nod' or without a PH and outfitter etc, which is how it appears, was either shooting you a line etc or talking bollocks that may very well drop you in the ****.......... There's always the odd farmer willing to take a chance, but remember that the local hunting industry here is very big and anyone who had decent hunting land would sell out to the locals without having the worry of taking a chance on things.

All that said, you could if you wished, probably hire young newly qualified PHs to hunt you at a reasonable cost and just make sure you have a proper safari contract that stipulates all the relevant requirements. If you need recommendsations for young PHs, let me know and I'll put you in touch with a few who are good, honest and need to get hunts on their register and would work cheaply............

If a group of you got together, you could get a reasonably priced hunt on a properly organised basis anyway.

I really didn't come on here to try to sell safaris. - I don't need to do that and I don't know if I'm allowed to publish prices here.

IF I'M NOT, I APOLOGISE AND THE MODS SHOULD FEEL FREE TO REMOVE THIS POST ANYTIME THEY LIKE!! - But I don't see how I can explain the issue without publishing prices......Soooo

FWIW, a buddy and I priced a hunt for a group recently. The hunt was in one of the best areas in KZN and holds 4 of the Big 5, and camp is a dream. Prices for 2x1 were US$280/UKP140 per person per day and non hunting observers were US$100/UKP50 per day. This hunt was priced for 2008 and a few examples of trophy fees are:

Wildebeest US$535/UKP267.50
Impala US$225/UKP112.50
Kudu US$900/UKP450

And there's at least 16 species on the trophy list. If you opted to take females and young cull males then those fees would be reduced.........

We worked out that it'd need a minimum of 6 hunters to make it work at that price - but you need to remember that with a group hunt of this sort, there's always some bugger that wants to either come late, leave early or pay late etc........... You need to appoint one person to pull it all together and he needs to be absolutley strict on dates etc.

At the end of the day, a hunt costs what it costs and you have to accept that. You can't buy a roller for the price of a ford, you can't buy a H&H rifle for the price of a Brno and you can't buy a good quality hunting safari with customer service etc for the price of a dodgy deal. That's life.

Hope my explanation has helped you guys. Don't think I'm trying to flog a hunt, I'm not and it's up to you guys to decide what you want to do. If I can help, contact me by e-mail. - I'm more than happy to answer a few questions here if it'll help you guys with gathering info, but if you want to discuss specifics of a hunt, I'd prefer to do it by private e-mails.

Once again, I apologise to the mods, if I've broken the rules by publishing
prices, but I felt I couldn't explain my point without doing so and I certainly won't be offended if this post is removed.
 

shakari

Well-Known Member
#10
I see my post overlapped with Malcs one - sorry about that mate and I'll try to respond to your points here.

My remark about someone dropping someone in the **** referred to whoever told an overseas hunter he could hunt without a PH, outfitter and all the relevant paperwork. If that overseas hunter got caught hunting in that manner, they would be in very deep **** indeed. not only would they have all rifles and other hunting equipment confiscated, the cops are also permitted to confiscate all vehicles, including any hire vehicle used to drive to the hunting area immediatly. Last year a local guy got caught shooting a warthog in the road reserve which translates to the side of a dirt road in the middle of nowhere and he lost a new rifle and a brand new Toyota 4x4....... and was then prosecuted!

Malc is quite correct when he says you need a correctly licenced PH and outfitter, but legally they don't need to meet you at the airport. However, I'd advise you use one of the firearms courier services to meet and greet you. If you do, they'll have all your permits issued in advance and you'll just collect your firearms/ammo and have the cops do a quick check and you'll be out the door in a few minutes. If you DIY, it'll probably take a couple of hours......... cost is about US$150 per hunter.

Regarding prices......... I agree prices are rising everywhere, but it's caused by the ever rising price of oil which makes everything go up. It's a pain in the ass, but we have to live with it and hunts, like everything else are never gonna get cheaper..........

Taxidermy........ there's good and bad taxidermists in every part of the world and wherever you choose to have it done is entirely your choice. But I would warn caution regarding import of raw trophies into the UK and indeed even the US where they're currently burning CITES trophies if there is any mistake on the paperwork. - How they can be permitted to do that, I simply don't know! - It's a damn disgrace!!!

If you want a good taxidermist here in SA, Id strongly recommend Lifeform, if you want one in the UK, I'd recommend going to Malc for his advice as I'm absolutely sure he'll know who's good and who's bad over there.................
 

legaleagle69

Well-Known Member
#11
Hello wow talk about opening a can of worms.. lol

What I was not suggesting was hunting illegally, quite the opposite in fact.

My suggestion was to see if we could find someone through our "old boy" network that we could pay a reasonablre ammount to accompany us and act as guide, on land we had paperwork to hunt on without going after huge trophy fee animals.
How much do these guys ussually earn working for a company?
If 10 of us went for instance at $150 a day each, thats $1500 a day someone is doing rather nicely thank you out of it.
It is all based on the "fat rich yank" scale do the farmers get paid $10k to shoot some animal wandering on their bush?

As I stated a meat hunt, please do not have a dig at Sp4rkman he was not telling anyone you can do things to avoid or circumvent the law.
He has been really good to tell us about the possibilities that exist, but it was he himself that said a large group would need a guide.
 

shakari

Well-Known Member
#12
I think that maybe you don't understand how the pricing and the industry works......My point is that although you guys may not have been aware of it, it's illegal for an overseas hunter to go hunting here in SA and indeed in most parts of Africa, unless accompanied at all times in the bush by a correctly licenced PH and /or without the correct paperwork issued by a correctly licenced outfitter and indeed the game dept.

One of the problems with the safari industry is that because it's such a high dollar industry, many people think there are large profit margin involved......... that simply isn't the case. Profit margins are considerably lower than almost any other industy I know of. The motor trade for example, usually works on something like a 100% mark up - hunting is no-where near that. - I actually wish it was!

The reason that local hunting is cheaper here is because the locals buy a different product to overseas hunters. Locals will provide their own food and drink, cook for themselves, require no import/export permits of any kind and obviously don't pay a PH. - They'll often also provide their own hunting vehicles and fuel and they'll hunt the females and young rather than the big trophy animals.

Overseas hunters require import/export permits for their firearms, transport from and back to the airport, food, drink and someone to prepare it, laundry, additional skinning and trophy preperation work, vehicles, fuel, (often different) hunting permits and licences and a PH to accompany them in the bush at all times.

Your daily rate fee goes not only towards paying for all of the above, it also pays for the staff to run and maintain the hunting area and fences etc, build roads, pay for vehicles and maintenance, (just one of those Toyota Landcruiser trucks cost over $100K by the time they're equipped), anti poaching patrols, game counts & surveys and staff wages etc.

If you think it's the 'fat yank' syndrome as you suggest, you're mistaken. As for the farmers being paid whatever fee to shoot some animal wandering around in the bush........... yes, they do. How do you think the anmals get there? - I promise you, it's not teleportation or magic, the areas are fenced and hunted for most of the year......... therefore the game populations and especially the big trophy animal populations diminish and have to be replaced. When that happens, they have to bought at a game auction, then caught, transported and released. - It's not done for free......... all these things cost a lot of money and that also where some of your daily rate goes.

The fact is that overseas hunters are required by law and for very good reason to have a PH, outfitter and lots of paperwork etc to hunt in SA and I'm not 'having a go' at anyone, all I'm doing is trying to explain what the legal situation and the realities of hunting in SA are so that you don't get into trouble or lose you rifles etc.......

As I said, if you shoot the females and young males that need an offtake, instead of the big, expensive trophy animals, you'll pay less expensive trophy fees.

Although not directly related to SA.........To give you an idea of direct costs incurred by PHs - Just my Tanzanian PH licence and other paperwork that I need to hunt up there, (if I remember correctly) costs me a total of US$6540 a year at the moment..........

My point is that the possibility he mentioned doesn't exist - or at least, not legally and a group of that number don't require a guide, they require an appropriate number of PHs and an outfitter and the correct paperwork.

I was just trying to point that out to save anyone getting into trouble!
 
#13
Getting your rifle into SA isn't a problem. Done it 3 times in the past 12 months and back down again in August.

Yes, you need a letter of invitation stating your PH and outfitter details. You need to fill in a SAPS 520 form (downloadable) and have your FAC with you. Copy of your flight details as well.

I walk into the SAP Firearms office at Jo'burg airport and great them loudly with a "Good morning officers". I then point to my guncase and loudly get out my paperwork and ask to get started. Even when there are parties of foreign hunters in front of me they have always dealt with me right away. My PH just stands and looks after my luggage.

No fuss, no bribes. Just be confident and loud. They want to get rid of you ASAP.


Stan
 
#14
Getting your rifle into SA isn't a problem. Done it 3 times in the past 12 months and back down again in August.

Yes, you need a letter of invitation stating your PH and outfitter details. You need to fill in a SAPS 520 form (downloadable) and have your FAC with you. Copy of your flight details as well.

I walk into the SAP Firearms office at Jo'burg airport and great them loudly with a "Good morning officers". I then point to my guncase and loudly get out my paperwork and ask to get started. Even when there are parties of foreign hunters in front of me they have always dealt with me right away. My PH just stands and looks after my luggage.

No fuss, no bribes. Just be confident and loud. They want to get rid of you ASAP.


Stan
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
#15
Well there has been a great deal of useful information come out of this discussion, and I have to agree to a geater extent with Shakari.

I think its very commendable what Spa4kman is trying to achieve here for site members, and I know its always down to cost. I have had a couple of members phoning and asking me my personal opinion on this matter as it has stirred up a great deal of interest.

In all my Africa Safaris, and others I have organised they have always been true safaris, mostly in unfenced areas, and for trophy heads. But I will say this if I may. And this is my advice, take it or leave it.

1. Do not go if you do not have the back up of a registered safari operator and or PH to help you. Hunting in Africa is never going to be free or cheap cheap, even cull hunting. So make sure you are on the right side of the law. A number of PH's pass through this way after Reno SCI and it usually about February time. I can always try and put a presentation together for free, so you can talk to the PH himself.

2. You are paying maybe £1500 plus the airticket £690 return so you are in for a good £2000, for a cull hunt. Even this to a great many people is major money and its is :eek: so think before committing. What am I getting for my money, does it include accommodation, pick up and return to the airport, licence fees, food, laundry, booze etc etc, make sure there are no hidden costs, or suprises. Look at EMcC with his Driven Boar Hunt :rolleyes:

3. It is true to say that the more that go the less it cost the individual. But be careful, if 10 people go over 10 days thats a lot to cram ino one area with 10 hunters out everyday 2 on 1 hunting is 5 PH plus 5 vehicles, it will be a bun fight. Check the size of the area you are hunting, many are very small by African standards in SA. Everyone is on the bandwagon now with hunting.

4. Taxidermy, I have not heard of any CITIES animals being burnt in the UK. What many of you do not know is that I was a Wildlife Inspector some years back on a voluntary basis when it was the DOE. To my knowledge since we joined the EU you do not need a CITIES permit for plains game. It will only be for Leopard, Lion, Elephant etc. Because of the amount of trophies leaving Africa some of the Taxidermy companies got shity, because of work leaving their country. So they started using formaldehyde to fix and dip skins, which deliberatly buggered them. Also I have had prep work done by two very good taxidermy companies in SA, the last lot of work was the worst prep work I have ever seen. It was ****. Like I said they are not consistent in my book, but you takes your choice.

Personally if I was you guys I would get together a group of no more than 6 of you, and look around for a package deal in SA or Namibia that is all inclusive, daily rate, pick up and return, laundry, booze, 2x1 guiding, vehicles, and about 6 animals or a cull package over 8 to 10 days.

What I do not want to see is anyone off this site having problems on their first trip to Africa, and coming back all doom and gloom.

Remember the old saying. If its too good to be true, it generally is.

Good luck guys, let me know if I can advise in any way, I will be more than pleased to do so for you.
 

shakari

Well-Known Member
#16
Good post by Malc, although I will point out that I said the burning of trophies was in the US, not the UK. However regs have changed worldwide lately and basically the various Govt agancies involved in the import process of the various countries are making thing awkward for all hunters importing trophies. - Anything they can find wrong such as an incorrect or faint date stamp and they give you the option of returning the shipment to get the paperwork re-issued correctly or destroying the trophies.

In the US, they were offering that option and now, I'm tol they're just destroying them. - If I can find the report, I'll post it.

Malc

I've never heard of taxidermists doing as you say, and can't see why it would be necessary as most that i know of simply spray to disinfect, dry and then send to the airport where the entire crate is irradiated. However, if you'd like to PM or e-mail me with names of taxidermists and clients, I'll be more than happy to pass the info onto PHASA and the Taxidermists assoc for investigation.

Regarding flights, if there's a large number of you coming to Africa on the same day, you should be able to get a BIG discount from the 'group travel' dept of the airlines. I dn't know if the numbers are still the same, but you used to get a discount of about 45% if 10 or more were travelling together.
 

shakari

Well-Known Member
#17
Here you go........ from the hunting report :

That CITES paperwork problem we told you about in our last bulletin is getting worse. Seems the US Fish & Wildlife Service is soon going to simply destroy CITES trophies that arrive in the US with faulty documents, denying hunters the option of shipping their trophies back to the countries of origin and re-exporting them with documents containing no clerical errors.

The Service has not given a timeframe for when this extreme enforcement will begin, saying only that it is at their discretion. Destruction of what the Service now considers "illegal" CITES shipments (that is, CITES shipments with permits containing clerical errors) conceivably could begin any time this year. We have that from John J. Jackson, III of Conservation Force. US shipping agents hope the Service will permit the re-export of trophies for at least the remainder of this year in order to get everyone accustomed to the new requirements, but there is no guarantee of that. If you have a CITES trophy overseas about to be shipped, it is absolutely essential that you take all possible steps to insure that the CITES paperwork accompanying it is properly and fully filled out.

The best way to avoid trouble is to contact your hunt operator right away and find out who is handling the documentation and shipping of your trophy. Send that person the instructions and sample of a properly filled out CITES export form that we have posted to our web site. See below for the URL. Next, ask that same person to fax or e-mail a copy of your finalized CITES export form to the freight handler receiving your shipment in the United States. Ask him to do that before your trophy is shipped. A reputable US freight agent will know the rules and what to look for on export certificates. Your receiving agent should be able to catch any errors in the paperwork before the shipment leaves the country of origin.

This CITES paperwork problem, by the way, is not unique to the United States. Abigail Day, president of the SCI London Chapter in England, tells us that hunters in the UK have been dealing with this problem for some time now. She says faxing the documentation ahead of time has been a good solution for international hunters there. We are grateful indeed that she shared this information with us. Good luck with your CITES trophy shipments! - Barbara Crown.





I haven't seen it officially reported that the destruction has now began but unofficially I'm told it has........... don't know how true that is though.....
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
#18
Yes you are right it was burning in the States, that does not suprise me :eek:

Formaldehyde was used for a while mostly in Zim, especially near Hararee, I will not name people by name on an open forum. In SA my last shipment was buggered, a 57" Kudu skull boiled to nothing apart froma frontlet, a Cape Buff with no nose bones, and the remaining trophies boiled so much they were like powder. This also happened to another Taxidermist from the UK who I have known for a number of years that also hunted SA.

Plus in many places they use **** salt, some of it is brown rock salt, which is crap. It has so much iodine in it it hardens the skin and you will have a hells own game relaxing it. Why with all the salt mines in Africa they cannot produce decent salt is beyond me in this modern age. But thats Africa for you.

I had one guy breaking rock salt with a lump hammer before he salted my trophies in 1992, as they would have slipped if he had used the crap he was going to use :rolleyes:

Still there is nothing like the memory of sitting around the camp fire with friends and looking up to the night sky in the kalahari :D pure bloody magic.

Just seen you other post. Faxing the Cities papers ahead was always the sensible thing to do. I had on a number of occassions Africa Taxidermy companies ship trophies to friends without telling them it had left. On arrival the paper work was not prepared and so the crate was impounded, and in those days it was I believe £70 a day storage charges. So things havnt changed, get yourself a good freight agent in the UK. They are out there, I have a company I have used for over 20 years, shipping in and out of the UK to USA. Never had a problem. The trouble in the States is that if it does not go through a designated port of entry into the States, you are already on a loosing run from the off, and its going to cost you BIG TIME!!!
 

shakari

Well-Known Member
#19
the salt problem was at it's worst in Botswnana ans we always take our own in from SA and we do the same thing for Tanzania to make sure we have the best there is, but its bloody expensive in fuel........... Zim has had a salt problem for years and they've had to cancel the last 2 or 3 elephant culls because of lack of it....... crazy huh?

Taxidermists, like I said, there's good and bad everywhere. I reckon Lifeform are the best in SA and Buckshot in Dallas are one of the best in the US........ don't know about the UK though. One thing I do know about the UK is that the vet inspectors are ridiculously strict and I'm so bloody sick of it, that from this year, if a client wants us to ship raw trophies there, we're gonna have him sign an agreement that its totally his responsibility and he accepts total responsibility for anything that goes wrong........ We had to fly someone from SA all the way to Dar last week just to sort out the fact that the Dar vet inspector had run out of ink for his rubber stamp and the UK vet wouldn't accept the paperwork!

Personally, I reckon it should be the airlines responsibility to check the paperwork. They're responsible for checking passengers passports and also for checking there's no conflict with dangerous goods shipments and their travel permits comply, and the govt stamps are put onto the paperwork inside the security area where no one else except airline staff are permitted to go, so surely they shoul be the ones to check the final paperwork!

Ah well, I guess its all part of the business and the upside is that we get to spend a lot of time in the bush!!!!!
 

legaleagle69

Well-Known Member
#20
I have now managed to read through all that was posted properly and digested decided to comment.

Now from what I am reading shakari is a very experienced and knowledgeable PH, and along with Malc is trying to make sure we don't all get locked up in Africa which I really would like to avoid if at all possible,.. :rolleyes:

So thank you for that, your concern it is greatly appreciated guys.

Shakari, I do not think anyone thinks you are trying to sell your services, but would probably be preferable if we don’t say people are talking bollox as this really doesn’t help anyone.
Now I have a very old mate who has lived in the former Rhodesia, before it was buggered up by the current incumbents, where incidentally he showed me pics of the largest animals he saw on his last trip.. ants !!
He is currently in UK and tells me that in SA where he visits friends, a land owner can invite personal friends but must use the land owners rifle in the land owners company,
If you look at Stones safari it is exactly what he did it with a mate, and he has just said he has been invited out again, lucky sod!! It may well be his and my buddies land owner mate is a PH as well so please do not jump down on me, I never asked the question it is surmised.

Shakari quite rightly points out that if there is good hunting land anyone who makes his living is going to be rather miffed if a bunch of us go over for a lot less than they are charging, because as also pointed out this is the age of cyberspace nothing remains undiscovered for long, and if we can do it then their clients can also do it.
Further we all know the law changes as the blows in those places and bribery is rife, so It wouldn’t take much for miffed PH to slip a bent copper few bucks and you can hassle anyone so it is best to cover all bases.
I think the problem was we are all getting a little over excited about things, so if we look carefully at the situation, no one wants to hunt illegally, however why should we pay through the nose.
I for one have lived in many harsh environments and can do my own cooking etc not a hardship but, if we can get a guide to accompany us on a fair daily rate and maybe organise some services and camping on the type of hunting the locals do with totally legal paperwork why not.
To me personally the idea of hunting a “zoo” animal bought from a game farm is everything that is wrong with this world, it is my own personal opinion and I have spoken with others before about this scenario.
If I wanted to hunt a “trophy” animal I would want to go into open bush after a truly wild animal, in the way the guy who started the Quex House did. That is what I would consider a real safari not these so called canned hunts shown on Louis Theroux’s show the other week.
Unfortunately I doubt this is even possible now, so it is probably a moot point.
I even prefer wild game bird shooting in the UK my old man always used to joke about pheasant shoots being like letting the chickens out of the coop for a few weeks and shooting them in the farmyard.
This is why deer stalking appeals to me so much.

The idea of going out to Africa with a group of mates, nights around a camp fire eating what we have shot cannot get any better, I do not need to pay £10k to pull a trigger to get an experience to last a lifetime. Plus after reading all the problems trophies have to be exported seems a bit pointless.
Yes, I understand all to well how certain professions are rebuked for their professional costs, when I had an office for my business I never had any money at all running costs were extortionate.

So Shakari, if my over opinionated rants haven’t extricated me to far from the good books, I for one would like to take your kind offer to put us in contact with some of your young PH friends and see if maybe we can do as I suggested and hire one to guide us if we can get a group together.

Sp4rkman please accept my apologies if any of this has caused you offence I believe you acted in good faith and would like state very firmly it was your good self and Malc that said a large group would attract trouble and pointed us in the direction of a good PH so in no way do I believe you or anyone was talking out turn.

This thread has indeed brought out some extremely valuable and thought provoking subject matter, Malc may have a point that on a first trip we should go with an all in trip, but if we could maybe do some of the work ourselves and create our own package trip then it could still be a possibility.

Is anyone still seriously interested and we can move forward and start planning?
 

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