Are moderators coming off ticket?
- Thread starter Czhowa
- Start date
I very-much suspect some idiot will think the Public are stupid enough to fall for it, too. Sadly, he'll probably be correct
I think the transaction will be exactly the same as now with the exception that nothing is written on the FAC, no slot required.
All you'll need to show is an FAC prior to purchase, so not freely available to just anyone.
And now the influx of people doing a 1-4-1 of unfilled mod slots before the change will grind the service to a halt.
Idleness, of course - i've just copied this post from a related thread to this one, as it might be relevant...
The problem seems to me to be that the current position is that you don't need an FAC to own mods: you just have variations to allow to own them when they're fitted to S1 firearms. The trade, and FAC-holders tend to behave as if moderators after being written onto an FAC magically become S1 items in their own right - but that doesn't actually seem to be true. It is a convenient way to proceed in the absence of crystal clarity on this, and the FLDs (unsurprisingly) seem to like/encourage it.
If my opinion (for that is all it is, of course) is correct, it might be altogether easier if the HO simply clarified the current position: so that mods unattached to S1 firearms could be sold freely as the unrestricted items that they clearly are intended to be under current law - and instructed its FLDs to act accordingly: with moderator 'slots' simply issued per rifle, completed on first purchase of any mod intended for that rifle with 'no marker/no number' - after which the FAC-holder is clearly entitled to own/use that rifle with a moderator attached. Which moderator is of no matter. The slot is technically vacant as soon as the mod's taken off the rifle, and filled again when it's on - but no-one cares about that. It's just the the FAC under current law would clearly allow the FAC-holder to fit a mod to a particular S1 firearm.
After the proposed change, the Minister says that you will need an FAC to own/buy a moderator - which, while it might mean in one sense moderators are 'removed from your FAC' potentially starts us all on a path to all sorts of other problems...
The problem seems to me to be that the current position is that you don't need an FAC to own mods: you just have variations to allow to own them when they're fitted to S1 firearms. The trade, and FAC-holders tend to behave as if moderators after being written onto an FAC magically become S1 items in their own right - but that doesn't actually seem to be true. It is a convenient way to proceed in the absence of crystal clarity on this, and the FLDs (unsurprisingly) seem to like/encourage it.
If my opinion (for that is all it is, of course) is correct, it might be altogether easier if the HO simply clarified the current position: so that mods unattached to S1 firearms could be sold freely as the unrestricted items that they clearly are intended to be under current law - and instructed its FLDs to act accordingly: with moderator 'slots' simply issued per rifle, completed on first purchase of any mod intended for that rifle with 'no marker/no number' - after which the FAC-holder is clearly entitled to own/use that rifle with a moderator attached. Which moderator is of no matter. The slot is technically vacant as soon as the mod's taken off the rifle, and filled again when it's on - but no-one cares about that. It's just the the FAC under current law would clearly allow the FAC-holder to fit a mod to a particular S1 firearm.
After the proposed change, the Minister says that you will need an FAC to own/buy a moderator - which, while it might mean in one sense moderators are 'removed from your FAC' potentially starts us all on a path to all sorts of other problems...
Well, sort of.
The truth appears to me to be that no-one actually needs any 'permit' in law to buy or own any moderator.
That would explain why people can buy and own whatever mod they like for their S2 shotguns and sub-12ftlb airguns.
Essexsussex
Well-Known Member
Think of the time that would be saved if they came off ticket. Not police time but time we all spend talking about it. The amount of deer shot the year they come off ticket will show an uptick in sure.
I suppose ‘Owning’ and ‘Using’ are two different things maybe?
Let's draft the legislative text that explains why the same 0.22" Moderator can be purchased freely if intended for an air rifle (sub 12ftlbs) or requires sight of an FAC if intended for section 1, 0.22" moderator.
I suppose while they are doing this our parlimentains aren't doing anything more stupid?
I suppose while they are doing this our parlimentains aren't doing anything more stupid?
I can be dispassionate about the moderator issue because I've never had one. They are now given out like Smarties, but there is an open slot on my certificate dating from 2000 for a 'multi-calibre' .308 mod which I surrendered last week in my current Renewal. My excuse for 25 years of dithering are visceral. I dislike them, don't want them, don't need them. They're ugly, expensive, and overrated. Those who started out in the '80's and '90's when they weren't permitted already have damaged hearing to some degree, so see much less point in using them.
I'm not sure that BASC can claim much of the credit for de-licensing moderators. The police in the form of the NPCC and FELWG have been pushing for this change for years because administering mods takes up a stupid amount of time. Look at the latest figures here from NFLMS. There has been a reduction from 2024 to 2025 in almost every 'weapon type' column. The number of every type of shotgun has also fallen significantly.
The number of Rifles licensed has increased by only 241 in a year, but Moderators have gone up by 2,365. In fact Moderators are the only item driving up the 'S1 firearms' totals. You can see why the Home Office have decided to make them non-licensable. All this is cost driven from the Home Office and Treasury, just as full cost recovery of fees was. It has very little to do with the influence of shooting-related pressure groups like BASC and the NGO.
If anyone thinks vacant mod slots on FACs are going to be convertible for firearms I think they are wrong. That would generate extra work for FLDs so it won't happen. When mods lose their S1 status they will become an irrelevance in the licensing process, just like all the 'expanding ammunition' restrictions were made to disappear by legislation. I think they'll be purchaseable and tradeable only on production of an FAC, just like primers & powders are now. Ownership and use will be limited to certificate holders, which will be a nice and cheap solution for the gun trade and law enforcement.
I'm not sure that BASC can claim much of the credit for de-licensing moderators. The police in the form of the NPCC and FELWG have been pushing for this change for years because administering mods takes up a stupid amount of time. Look at the latest figures here from NFLMS. There has been a reduction from 2024 to 2025 in almost every 'weapon type' column. The number of every type of shotgun has also fallen significantly.
The number of Rifles licensed has increased by only 241 in a year, but Moderators have gone up by 2,365. In fact Moderators are the only item driving up the 'S1 firearms' totals. You can see why the Home Office have decided to make them non-licensable. All this is cost driven from the Home Office and Treasury, just as full cost recovery of fees was. It has very little to do with the influence of shooting-related pressure groups like BASC and the NGO.
If anyone thinks vacant mod slots on FACs are going to be convertible for firearms I think they are wrong. That would generate extra work for FLDs so it won't happen. When mods lose their S1 status they will become an irrelevance in the licensing process, just like all the 'expanding ammunition' restrictions were made to disappear by legislation. I think they'll be purchaseable and tradeable only on production of an FAC, just like primers & powders are now. Ownership and use will be limited to certificate holders, which will be a nice and cheap solution for the gun trade and law enforcement.
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Excactly. You currently appear to me to need authority on you FAC (the token for which is a filled slot) to use a moderator on an S1 firearm.
You don't need the FAC to buy or own a mod when it isn't on a S1 firearm - and that is why there are currently uncountable moderators all over the country which, notwithstanding their potential for on S1 firearms, are lawfully in the hands of S2 shotgun and non-FAC air-weapons-users.
The Minister makes it clear in her statement that she wants holding and FAC to be a required more lawful ownership of moderators. Does that sound, in the context of the current law, like something which will make anyone's life easier?
I fear this is already about rather more than moderators on S1 firearms, and therefore I'm not sure that any shooting person can afford to be dispassionate about it; as a change in the law potentially-disadvantageous to users of firearms and their accessories - S1, S2 or (currently) unrestricted.
We need to draft a text which allows the same moderator to be bought, sold and possessed by one person without any restriction at all, and by another person without any restriction at all as long as he holds an FAC. If the only difference between these two people is that one already holds an FAC and the other doesn't, then what it the point of the change? You might as well keep the law as it except for removing mods and flash-hiders which are 'accessories to' S1 firearms from S1 controls, and leave it at that.
Keep in mind that the moderator is just a moderator. It doesn't know what it's going to be used for, and so can't really change its status in law accordingly. A crime of intent might be useful here, I suppose?
Also keep in mind that requiring sight of the buyer's FAC on purchase is not the same as a requirement that one must be an FAC-holder lawfully to possess a moderator (as per the Minister's statement).
Excactly. You currently appear to me to need authority on you FAC (the token for which is a filled slot) to use a moderator on an S1 firearm.
You don't need the FAC to buy or own a mod when it isn't on a S1 firearm - and that is why there are currently uncountable moderators all over the country which, notwithstanding their potential for on S1 firearms, are lawfully in the hands of S2 shotgun and non-FAC air-weapons-users.
The Minister makes it clear in her statement that she wants it to be necessary to hold a FAC in order lawfully to possess a moderator.
As per the other thread, I am looking at producing a list of FAQs for the BASC website on the government's announcement to deregulate sound moderators. Below are various questions from various places. Feel free to add more questions (and suggested answers if you wish) for me to consider with colleagues.
What will happen to the sound moderator slot on my ticket? Can I repurpose it for another firearm or will I just lose it?
Will I need to post my ticket in for sound moderators to be taken off? Is there any cost involved?
Will there be a limit of how many sound moderators can be owned?
Will you still need to dispose of sound moderators through an RFD?
How will this affect people who have sound moderators for sub 12ft air rifles and shotguns?
Will flash-hiders also be deregulated?
Will sound moderators still need to be securely stored in line with Home Office guidance?
Will they still need to be transferred via RFD?
Will online sales be allowed?
Will sound moderators be able to be bought online and posted to home addresses if deregulated?
What will happen to the sound moderator slot on my ticket? Can I repurpose it for another firearm or will I just lose it?
Will I need to post my ticket in for sound moderators to be taken off? Is there any cost involved?
Will there be a limit of how many sound moderators can be owned?
Will you still need to dispose of sound moderators through an RFD?
How will this affect people who have sound moderators for sub 12ft air rifles and shotguns?
Will flash-hiders also be deregulated?
Will sound moderators still need to be securely stored in line with Home Office guidance?
Will they still need to be transferred via RFD?
Will online sales be allowed?
Will sound moderators be able to be bought online and posted to home addresses if deregulated?
could this not be consolidated down to will transaction have to be face to face as per distance selling of firearms are now via RFD handover.
With regard to this point as I understand it:
What they actually propose to do is remove s57(1)(d) of the '68 Act so anything that reduces the sound or flash caused by firing a weapon is not a 'firearm' anymore.
That would certainly sort it out - but for the Minister's assertion that to possess a moderator it will necessary to hold an FAC. That's the bit that might cause problems?
Just like primers?
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