Are we approaching drought conditions?
- Thread starter Cyres
- Start date
No, I'm not a water industry employee, nor ever have been. I did work in another state owned industry though for decades and saw the messes that Whitehall interference caused and the perennial problems caused by the Treasury saying 'No' to everything that cost more than 10P.
Take a relatively simple example. Most people have now forgotten that the old BR owned several ports and short sea ferry companies. They've also likely forgotten that there was an earlier Channel Tunnel project that was scrapped late in the day after tunneling had actually begun.
When the Chunnel (Mark 1) was apparently imminent, none of the cross channel ferry operators renewed any ships or spent much money on anything for that matter. When the tunnel project was cancelled, both main operators (Townsend Thoreson and BR's Shipping Division) desperately needed to commission new vessels.
Townsend went made a case to its board, got approval and raised the money in a matter of weeks and went out to tender. The overwhelming winner was a shipyard in Bremen - on cost and delivery dates. The contracts were signed, Townsend got its ship on time and the first entered service in a remarkably short timescale.
Br's division made its case (on effectively identical grounds to Thoresons) in about the same timescale. Then it went to the Dept of Transport who came back with lots of questions, then supplementary questions, then supplementaries to the supplementaries. Back and forth and the months passed. Then the Treasury got involved - not a chance! Far too expensive.
Eventually, a smaller, lower specification fleet replacement programme was authorised. The kicker was thnat the ships had to be built by Harland & Wolff, Belfast whose prices were a third higher than the Germans and whose delivery times were some 50% longer. Then ...... Harlands, notoriously strike-prone at that time, had a series of disputes and the ships saw major delays, so the already long lead times had a year plus added.
The upshot was that a state industry operating in a competitive market simply couldn't operate competitively. Townsends had its new ships in service three to four years earlier for a lot less money. This sort of thing happened in the industry (rolling stock, specialist freight locomotives, station renewals etc, etc) again and again. The first thing the purchasers of the former BR freight business did was to start phasing out all of the unreliable, high cost BR locomotives and lease a compeletely new fleet of Class 66s built by US company EMD, the US railroad industry being so large that its freight loco R&D expenditure is way ahead of anybody else and its machines much more efficient.
Railway passneger privatisation has been a complete dogs dinner (the professionals told Major's government they were creating the worst of all worlds, but the structure that produced most money up front was adopted for that reason alone), but at least the new industry gets excellent rolling stock regularly refurbished and replaced.
The problem with public services and the UK for a long time was that the Treasury would not under any circumstances accept a hybrid structure of state ownership and private capital investment, but at the same time wouldn't provide the money for infrastructure and equipment renewals. The Victorian citizens of Birmingham might have paid out mega amounts for new water infrastructure, but times were different then. Where are the great public investments in the UK since WW2 (or even a lot earlier) that are commonplace over on the continent in France, Germany and elsewhere?
Well spotted Horseman, I was a water industry employee and am about to do some consultancy work for the water industry again.
I was proud to work in the industry and to be associated with those that do. Lots of deer stalkers and country folk amongst them, some of whom are on this forum. I wouldn't go back to the polluted rivers and streams of the past - I'm a keen angler as well as a hunter and clay shot, so all of those who help keep or improve our environment get my support.
I was proud to work in the industry and to be associated with those that do. Lots of deer stalkers and country folk amongst them, some of whom are on this forum. I wouldn't go back to the polluted rivers and streams of the past - I'm a keen angler as well as a hunter and clay shot, so all of those who help keep or improve our environment get my support.
Well said!
Anyway, on the issue of whether public = safe /responsible v private = unsafe / irresponsible, what has been described as the UK's worst public poisoning incident - Camelford's water supplies exactly 30 years ago this month - happened whilst South West Water who owned the reservoir was still a public sector utility. The inquiry found that the damage (Aluminium Sulphate accidentally added to a tank containing treated water instead of the proper holding vessel) was worsened by the absence of proper cleaning and maintenance over a period of years allowing sludge and contaminants to build up.
I simply don't hold with safety and quality standards being different under various ownership models - it's a matter of management culture, regulation, training etc. As tarponhead says all the evidence is that river etc standards have risen dramatically since water privatisation. .... and it is evidence not opinion as there are many monitoring bodies and studies that show this.
I see this as a result of three factors:
The freeing of money for upgrades. Put simply, the environment was a low priority for the Treasury if safeguarding or improving it it cost serious money.
Private companies are (rightly) being judged by and made to adhere to higher standards than their public sector predecessors.
When something like Camelford goes badly wrong and happens under state control, when did HMG last prosecute part of itself? Read the Camelford story and it was one huge public and political cover-up at local and national level - especially as South West water was about to be sold and this could have affected the price, or even the sale going ahead. I don't trust private sector executives much, but public ones even less, and politicians when they get involved not at all. If it's a private sector safety failure, there is no hiding place these days.
Quite so. The Camel was my sea trout river since I caught my first in the 70's and it never really recovered. Sadly, it actually took EU standards to kick the UK standards into a better place. Lets all do our bit, rather than just ranting. We live in a time of universal outrage about everything, especially in social media, so don't just talk about it - let's use that energy to do something about it. Next time you turn your tap, think about it....
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
The dry in the UK would be an 'ok' season where these blokes are. One has to feel for them.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/silence-of-the-lambs-nsw-farmer-to-shoot-starving-flock-because-he-cant-afford-to-feed-him/news-story/f6058ccab099d53bae619fec55187ebb
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/silence-of-the-lambs-nsw-farmer-to-shoot-starving-flock-because-he-cant-afford-to-feed-him/news-story/f6058ccab099d53bae619fec55187ebb
Hi John
Dry seasons are relative to the "normal" conditions one would expect to find in each country (or county even). Our current dry spell in SW England has been running since early May; the first rain since then was about 6mm 2 days ago. Some dairy farms have already consumed a fair chunk of first cut silage with virtually no second cut there. Whilst I feel every sympathy with them I cannot help but feel that the intensity of many modern farms leaves no room for bad years. Surely one of the first principles of stock farming is to stock at a level you can sustain through a bad time, be that a prolonged wet winter (which we just had) or a dry summer (which we are now having). OK both in the same year would test anybody.
For myself I am very glad that I sold 250 red deer last year, I would definitely be in trouble now otherwise. There were many reasons why I did it which I won't bore you with now but the future for livestock farming in the UK was one of them.
In the article you linked to above it says the farm in question had been on the market since 2014 which says to me the man was aware that what he was doing was not sustainable. Perhaps farms like that are unsaleable. Certainly no point putting a value on it that does not reflect its earning potential. The man has my sympathy though and there will be many other farmers who hang on too long simply because they do not know how to do anything else.
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
Yes CS I do agree with your stocking principles for the UK. We have so many marginal properties that can be gods heaven when the seasons are good yet deserts when they are not. Its one thing or another in those areas,too much water or too little but fantastic in between. I like higher rainfall in more consistent areas but of course then the price rises.
I remember reading where a couple of Aussie kids of around six years of age came running into the station house in fright after a sudden storm rained heavily..they had no idea of rain experience ha ha. Six years of living in that schithole...erk!
I remember reading where a couple of Aussie kids of around six years of age came running into the station house in fright after a sudden storm rained heavily..they had no idea of rain experience ha ha. Six years of living in that schithole...erk!
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