Assisted dying

[Rasputin]

My other half deals almost exclusively with cancer patients who need palliative care. Hopefully this passes and some of them can at least die with dignity. Some of the patients though should have been put down at birth let alone given any form of treatment.

 

[big ears]

So interesting times. If anyone hasn’t I suggest listening to Kim leadbetters interview.

The nay sayers talk of creep and euthanasia. The reality is that the criteria are so tight that many will die before the process is ended, it is very similar to that offered in Oregon in the uS with the addition of the Judge to sign it off. There is no possibility without new laws being passed that anyone other than the criteria in this bill will be included. That is to say those with Cancer, neurological disease or heart failure who have capacity and are able to self administer the medication. Of those offered this choice in Oregon 30% never took the medication in the end so this is not a quick way to bump off a disliked relative.

To me as someone who has worked with terminally ill patients many have a dignified death but others are haunted by what is to come. Others do also die horribly regardless of what we try.

Allowing human beings with capacity and a limited time on this earth the chance to chose how, when and with whom they die without any retribution on those left behind is a positive move.

I accept others will disagree.

 

[Pedro]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think so. Go back about 50 or more years and if you were terminally ill and in great and increasing pain, the doctor would come around (for the information of the youngsters on here, doctors made house calls back then) and would endeavour to reduce the pain with morphine. As the pain increased, the level of pain relief increased until the level of morphine being administered would put the patient out and he/she would then subsequently die. It was very debatable whether the patient died of the condition they had or from the pain relief, that being an overdose of morphine. Was that not assisted dying in practice? Although, of course that didn't cover every eventuality.

 

[big ears]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think so. Go back about 50 or more years and if you were terminally ill and in great and increasing pain, the doctor would come around (for the information of the youngsters on here, doctors made house calls back then) and would endeavour to reduce the pain with morphine. As the pain increased, the level of pain relief increased until the level of morphine being administered would put the patient out and he/she would then subsequently die. It was very debatable whether the patient died of the condition they had or from the pain relief, that being an overdose of morphine. Was that not assisted dying in practice? Although, of course that didn't cover every eventuality.

That may have happened but we now live in a post Shipman world.

I would also add that pain is not the only issue for these people. For some of mine they choked slowly to death. Not a great thing for any involved.

 

[devon deer stalker]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think so. Go back about 50 or more years and if you were terminally ill and in great and increasing pain, the doctor would come around (for the information of the youngsters on here, doctors made house calls back then) and would endeavour to reduce the pain with morphine. As the pain increased, the level of pain relief increased until the level of morphine being administered would put the patient out and he/she would then subsequently die. It was very debatable whether the patient died of the condition they had or from the pain relief, that being an overdose of morphine. Was that not assisted dying in practice? Although, of course that didn't cover every eventuality.

Still happens, called a morphine pump

 

[Pedro]

That may have happened but we now live in a post Shipman world.

I would also add that pain is not the only issue for these people. For some of mine they choked slowly to death. Not a great thing for any involved.

I wasn't referring to Shipman, who was nothing more than a mass murderer or his like, but doctors that might have done this with nothing but the best intentions, whether wrong or not. And obviously that practice didn't cover everything, as I acknowledge when I said "Although, of course that didn't cover every eventuality."

It's an emotive subject and I don't envy the MPs who had to decide how to vote. I only hope the checks that will be in place are as watertight as possible should this pass into law..

 

[geoshot]

I've seen friends die horribly, watched my father die slowly over several months, my mother is on her own slow way out at present and at times is in distress
At times I've thought, and said to those I thought I could trust "I wish there was some way to end this"
My mum has even asked for it
BUT
I am one of those who see such legislative changes as "the thin end of the wedge"
I fear, and expect, that it won't be too long before a privilege & a choice become a compulsion
We'll move quite rapidly from "doing the right thing" to "it's the right thing to do"
I read Leadbeater's proposal and watched much of the debate as it was shown and noted that safeguards all seem to be strong and in-place right now - but in a few years' time?
Laws can and will change - good old mission creep, of which there are numerous examples without even having to look outside the UK
The old & infirm - and the disabled - are already seen as a burden, the elderly castigated & reviled for daring to draw a pension
It's a terrifyingly small step from that to wanting to get rid of "unproductive eaters" & the other burdens on society

 

[Drum123]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think so. Go back about 50 or more years and if you were terminally ill and in great and increasing pain, the doctor would come around (for the information of the youngsters on here, doctors made house calls back then) and would endeavour to reduce the pain with morphine. As the pain increased, the level of pain relief increased until the level of morphine being administered would put the patient out and he/she would then subsequently die. It was very debatable whether the patient died of the condition they had or from the pain relief, that being an overdose of morphine. Was that not assisted dying in practice? Although, of course that didn't cover every eventuality.

My own mother ,riddled with cancer which was passed off as just a bad back by the doctor for two years before they scanned her and found the cancer in her spine, was helped to pass away by the simple process of removing her pillows to allow her lungs to fill with fluid. A process that was explained to me by the nurse , 'being laid flat' as she put it. Assisted dieing by another name, which I welcomed , she was in agony for a long time. I would have welcomed a solution to her agonies much earlier as I think would she .
That is the crux of the argument though , I was desperate to see an end to her pain but by that point she was incapable of making choices for herself.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Understandably, many are now calling for an increase in the quality and availability of palliative care to ensure the best possible outcome for the terminally ill.

This raises the ugliest of words but cannot be overlooked as Wes Streeting is certain to be aware:

Funding

K

 

[Kalahari]

Rather sadly there is a senior coroner in North America in an assisted dying state, who lists several hundred "assisted deaths" where proper procedures were not carried out. If this is true these cases were at best manslaughter and at worst murder. Be very careful what you wish for.

David.

Canadian coroner records 428 cases of doctors breaching assisted dying guidelines

Dirk Huyer notes physicians in Ontario have a ‘pattern of not following legislation’

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Robinson]

I see a future where the old folks get the hints by their children or others who take care of them: " You dont have much of a life anymore pops/old man, do you? We have plenty who needs your bed and our care. Isn't it time to call it a day? I can book you an appointment with this nice clinic that will put you to sleep in the nicest manner you can think of. We are really overworked here now". In Norway, not far from where I live we have this place called Uburdhelleren. It's a steep climb to get up there , but legends tells that in accent times this was a place where old folks and unwanted children were given the assisted dying option. Relatively painless when they were toppled over the egde, and animals did the cleaning up below. But of course, this might look nicer in white coats.

 

[FrenchieBoy]

I am still sitting on the fence over the issue of "Assisted Dying"!
IF "Assisted Dying" is introduced into the UK then it had to have safeguards, and very, very strict ones!
I agree that if you are terminally ill and suffering then you should have the option to have your life (And suffering and pain) ended for you quickly, properly, humanely and in a dignified manner.
So many times we see or hear of relatives, friends and loved ones having to live in a state of constant pain and suffering (through many different sorts of both physical or mental illness) along with the worry of the heartbreak that they are causing others but up until now there has been no legal way out of this for them in the UK, even though they have stated that they would like to have it all ended for them.
I have seen my Mother and all three of my brothers die in pain with Cancer and I can tell you that it has been heart breaking for all of us that were close to them - The most recent was my brother Mick who knew he was terminally but refused to tell anyone except his wife how long he had left to live - He passed away earlier this year. I am certain that he would have liked to have shortened the time of suffering, worry and heart break if he had been allowed to, but unfortunately that option was not open to him! However, having said that my big worry is that those who are "suffering" and terminally ill might be at risk from having the thought of Assisted Dying "planted" into their mind or being "persuaded" that it might be the better option for them and those around them.

It really is such a fine line and that is why I say that I am still sitting on the fence over this issue!

 

[Nickb]

Still happens, called a morphine pump

My father passed away this year and he had a morphine driver fitted to relieve the pain plus another 2 drugs administered to assist the process.

 

[bowji john]

I’m not comfortable with these people making decisions on my behalf

There was a time when parliamentarians, from all political persuasions, were experienced folk with a lifetime in a variety of roles

I believed that they brought that experience to the table alongside the knowledge of those that put them there

I fear that I might have been deluding myself

When there was a vote on the banning of trophies (hunting in Africa) a year or two ago I contacted my conservative MP to provide what I felt was an opinion based upon a great deal of experience

He pretty much indicated that he knew nothing of the subject. was not interested in learning, but planned to vote how he was told

I asked him how many other topics, upon which he had cast a vote on my behalf, that he knew nothing about.

He didn't furnish me with an answer

This is - I fear - another

This time with MPs that have very little experience and education

j

 

[Ratel]

Can we book in elderly relatives to the scheme?

Just watch your younger ones don't give you the "Omerta kiss" when they visit their Dad.

 

[Kalahari]

I’m not comfortable with these people making decisions on my behalf

There was a time when parliamentarians, from all political persuasions, were experienced folk with a lifetime in a variety of roles

I believed that they brought that experience to the table alongside the knowledge of those that put them there

I fear that I might have been deluding myself

When there was a vote on the banning of trophies (hunting in Africa) a year or two ago I contacted my conservative MP to provide what I felt was an opinion based upon a great deal of experience

He pretty much indicated that he knew nothing of the subject. was not interested in learning, but planned to vote how he was told

I asked him how many other topics, upon which he had cast a vote on my behalf, that he knew nothing about.

He didn't furnish me with an answer

This is - I fear - another

This time with MPs that have very little experience and education

j

These kind of MPs are a terrible pain! Can't we "assist" them?

David.

 

[Ratel]

In these times do you really trust a doctor,(if you are lucky enough to have one that knows you) or a Judge considering our current judiciary's decisions. I certainly wouldn't. If I choose to go when in a condition that warrants it, It will be my choice, my way and body else's.

 

[kenbro]

Can we book in elderly relatives to the scheme?

Are you asking on behalf of Mouse, Tim.

 

[Rasputin]

That may have happened but we now live in a post Shipman world.

I would also add that pain is not the only issue for these people. For some of mine they choked slowly to death. Not a great thing for any involved.

Absolutely spot on in the end painkillers don’t even work. I think the assisted dying bill probably means little to most people unless you have had the misfortune of watching g someone suffer a prolonged agitated death.

 

[Pedro]

So here's another thought that entered my head today.

So, you want/need to have an assisted death once it's lawful so, first point of contact where you need to get the nod for this is your GP. But the GP doesn't believe in assisted deaths so refuses to cooperate. Fallen at the first hurdle? We all know that GPs won't touch what they disagree with when considering firearms grants/renewals. Those that don't believe in contraception have produced similar problems too.