Attitudes to non-indigenous deer species

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Buckaroo8

Well-Known Member
Interesting that 7 different groups can be identified within the UK.......the groups must be quite mixed by now with overlapping ranges, although there are clear indications in the shape of Roe antlers that there are big genetic differences across the UK. Here in Cornwall it is quite normal to shoot a buck with an antler span roughly as wide as the overall length. I think in the south east heads are usually taller and narrower.
 

270Buck

Well-Known Member
Roe were allegedly pretty much wiped out in the UK and most modern day populations were the result of re-introductions. The East Anglian roe are supposed to be mainly of Germanic origin which is why they have such crappy heads.
MS

Not too bad. I shot a bronze in May in Suffolk. See photo of my avatar.

​cheers
 

CWMMAN3738

Well-Known Member
I can't help but feel some disappointment in those who would have non indigenous deer wiped out here they add in many cases to the diversity of our environment not to mention that I THINK about 30% of the population of CWD are in the uk so that would be frowned upon I'm sure or are we being selective about which ones we eliminate from our shores I see much about Munties from scotland but shurley sika pose the greatest threat to the native RED deer in Scotland & in my experience Fallow will dominate an area over the native roe where both are present
 

timbrayford

Well-Known Member
I can't help but feel some disappointment in those who would have non indigenous deer wiped out here they add in many cases to the diversity of our environment not to mention that I THINK about 30% of the population of CWD are in the uk so that would be frowned upon I'm sure or are we being selective about which ones we eliminate from our shores I see much about Munties from scotland but shurley sika pose the greatest threat to the native RED deer in Scotland & in my experience Fallow will dominate an area over the native roe where both are present

Apparently we have around 30% of the European population of Red deer living within the Uk, across much of which they are under threat from hybridization with the non-native Sika.

Alarmingly in the New Forest the Forestry Commission are content for herds of Sika and Red to overlap each others dispersal ranges relying on their rangers spotting and culling any stags attempting to hybridize. This strategy is a high risk one and there should be no surprise should it fail.

atb Tim
 

Mungo

Well-Known Member
What do you think about the spread of non-indigenous deer species where you live/hunt? I'd be interested to hear opinions of members from abroad as well as from Britain

All depends on context and relative impact of other human activities.

Hawaii: recently colonised by people, with a fragile ecology entirely unadapted to our presence, and with no native land mammals prior to our arrival. Introduction of any large mammal can and does wreak havoc and can rapidly and irrevocably alter the ecology, in very damaging ways.

Britain: very long history of human habitation and massive interference in the ecology. Almost impossible to say what is 'natural'. That notwithstanding, the ecology has developed with large mammals as an integral part, so is adapted to thier presence. Introduced species likely to have relatively little impact, particulary in relation to what humans already doing. That impact likely to be restricted to direct competitiors (muntjac v roe) or hybrids (sika v red).

So I'd say, for some where like Hawaii, every effort should be taken to stop them as quickly as possible. Somewhere like the UK - we have far bigger problems to worry about.
 

Spix

Well-Known Member
I can't help but feel some disappointment in those who would have non indigenous deer wiped out here they add in many cases to the diversity of our environment

The big challenge for landowners is that so little is known about actual numbers. One study here in Breckland found upto 70 Muntjac per square kilometre and certainly there are more of these little deer around here than there were even five years ago. Culling by deer 'management' companies and recreational hobby stalkers won't make a dent even in the net annual increase in their population and many would prefer the landscape graced by the beautiful Roe.
 

norma 308

Well-Known Member
Roe were allegedly pretty much wiped out in the UK and most modern day populations were the result of re-introductions. The East Anglian roe are supposed to be mainly of Germanic origin which is why they have such crappy heads.
MS
I do know of gold medal roe in east Anglia / Suffolk but agree that Germanic genes were poor as the red and muntjac grow to very good sizes on the same ground .
​norma
 

bogtrotter

Well-Known Member
I can't help but feel some disappointment in those who would have non indigenous deer wiped out here they add in many cases to the diversity of our environment not to mention that I THINK about 30% of the population of CWD are in the uk so that would be frowned upon I'm sure or are we being selective about which ones we eliminate from our shores I see much about Munties from Scotland but shurley sika pose the greatest threat to the native RED deer in Scotland & in my experience Fallow will dominate an area over the native roe where both are present

I know very little about CWD but as far as I am aware they do not pose a threat to other deer species.

You say Fallow will dominate Roe in an area that may well be the case, we do not have a great deal of Fallow up here just a few isolated groups, which never seem to have moved far from where they were originally released
in some cases that release was over a hundred years ago.

As such they don't seem to be threat to other species other than in those isolated areas.


Muntjac will most certainly dominate an area where Roe are present, and while it might not be a big problem at the moment it certainly will be in the future, muntjac numbers continue increase due to there breeding habits
and secretive nature they are hard to control, as there numbers increase Roe will be pushed further and further into less attractive ground, it may be some time in the future but it may well come to pass that Roe become a rarity only to be found in areas that Muntjac won't colonise.

At this moment in time Scotland is relatively Muntjac free IMO we should strive to keep it so.


As you say Sika are a big threat to Scotland's Reds so much so that no mainland Red can be guaranteed pure , thats how much of an effect the japs have had on our native Reds.

However in the case of Sika the damage has been done, we can't undo it even if we could remove all the Sika from the country,which we can't its to late our Reds have been polluted with the Sika genes.
We need to live with it and learn from and make sure we don't make the same mistakes again.
 
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gerarddwatts

Well-Known Member
I can't help but feel some disappointment in those who would have non indigenous deer wiped out here they add in many cases to the diversity of our environment not to mention that I THINK about 30% of the population of CWD are in the uk so that would be frowned upon I'm sure or are we being selective about which ones we eliminate from our shores I see much about Munties from scotland but shurley sika pose the greatest threat to the native RED deer in Scotland & in my experience Fallow will dominate an area over the native roe where both are present

You are quite correct. Sadly there is little we can now do about sika. There are however some things we can do about muntjac, not least of which is educating those selfish individuals who move them, of the selfish folly of their ways. Additionally shoot every one on sight.
 

Monkey Spanker

Well-Known Member
Muntjac will most certainly dominate an area where Roe are present, and while it might not be a big problem at the moment it certainly will be in the future, muntjac numbers continue increase due to there breeding habits
and secretive nature they are hard to control, as there numbers increase Roe will be pushed further and further into less atractive ground, it may be some time in the future but it may well come to pass that Roe become a rarity only to be found in areas that Muntjac won't colonise.

H

We have not noticed this to be the case at all. Muntjac and Roe seem to exist in close proximity and even feed together at times. They will compete for the same foods to some extent, but as long as there is enough of it there doesn't seem to be any confliction. Roe also have a slight height advantage. If anything, we have seen our Roe weights increase recently.
MS
 

Monkey Spanker

Well-Known Member

That's interesting, I've not seen that before, thanks for the link.:thumb:
I think that we probably help to some extent by favouring the roe population. We have a planned Roe holding capacity and a dedicated roe cull to achieve it which preserves the roe population at a sustainable level. However, we shoot muntjac on sight and may cull as many as 300 per year which undoubtedly prevents their population density ever reaching a level where it could have impact on the Roe. We seem to be doing something right anyway as they seem to co-exist in relative harmony.
MS
 

bogtrotter

Well-Known Member
That's interesting, I've not seen that before, thanks for the link.:thumb:
I think that we probably help to some extent by favouring the roe population. We have a planned Roe holding capacity and a dedicated roe cull to achieve it which preserves the roe population at a sustainable level. However, we shoot muntjac on sight and may cull as many as 300 per year which undoubtedly prevents their population density ever reaching a level where it could have impact on the Roe. We seem to be doing something right anyway as they seem to co-exist in relative harmony.
MS

Thats interesting, theres no doubt they can co exist at low densities, and your management plan may be achieving that ,problems will arise when Mutjac reach a high density.

I have seen the article by Norma G. Chapman that morena provided the link to and towards the end of it she says .
High densities of Muntjac have an impact on established Roe deer populations by changing their pattern of habitat utilisation and locally reducing their numbers.



QUOTE. Richard Scrope
To many Fallow or indeed Muntjac can affect both the quality and the density of a Roe population.


And I believe it was Richard Prior who said ( apologies if I am attributing it to the wrong person as I can't find the article where I saw it) if you have a piece of ground that will hold a Roe that same piece of ground will hold two Muntjac so you can have two Muntjac or a Roe what you can't have is both.

The problem as I see it is the speed that Muntjac numbers increase, and the difficulty of controlling that increase
believe there are around 250,000 Muntjac in England at the present time, so it won't be long until they out number
Roe, Muntjac can thrive at population levels of up to 120 per square kilometre, at those sort of densities it would be extremely hard to also sustain a Roe population IMO
 
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Buckaroo8

Well-Known Member
As Muntjac spread across Britain we will see how their relationship with Roe evolves, but the main thing which concerns me is not the impact which Muntjac have on Roe, but the indirect impact that they might slowly be having on other species. Apparently we have some quite fragile ecosystems here in Britain, national parks, wildlife trust reserves, SSSI's, harbouring some rare species of insects, plants, amphibians, reptiles etc. I really don't know how the presence of Muntjac would affect these ecosytems and probably only time will tell.
Is there any firm evidence to show that Muntjac are detrimental to any particular environment, in which Roe can exist without damage?
 

Monkey Spanker

Well-Known Member
We should re-establish lynx and wolf populations in muntie areas to halt their expansion.

Yeh, that'll work. We now have muntjac in the local schools, public parks, church yards, nature reserves, stately homes/gardens, railway/road embankments, hospital grounds, allotments, gardens etc...
Lets get some large carnivores in there, that'll sort them out!:rolleyes:
I see a slight flaw in your plan!
MS;)
 

timbrayford

Well-Known Member
As Muntjac spread across Britain we will see how their relationship with Roe evolves, but the main thing which concerns me is not the impact which Muntjac have on Roe, but the indirect impact that they might slowly be having on other species. Apparently we have some quite fragile ecosystems here in Britain, national parks, wildlife trust reserves, SSSI's, harbouring some rare species of insects, plants, amphibians, reptiles etc. I really don't know how the presence of Muntjac would affect these ecosytems and probably only time will tell.
Is there any firm evidence to show that Muntjac are detrimental to any particular environment, in which Roe can exist without damage?

Have a look at this research
http://www.ptes.org/files/1529_small_mammals_and_deer_removal_final_report.pdf

I believe that Muntjac were responsible for much of the environmental damage in Wytham Woods, also look at

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcin36.pdf/$file/fcin36.pdf & http://www.forestry.gov.uk/PDF/fcin35.pdf/$FILE/fcin35.pdf

what is common to all these documents is that they evaluate the direct relationship between deer density and biodiversity.

They also suggest that having deer in relatively low numbers is more beneficial than having no deer at all.

Unfortunately Conservation groups here on the Isle of Wight appear to be totally unaware of the role that our native deer species fulfill in woodland ecosystems. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

atb Tim
 
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