Barnes TSX performance

I'd happily use monos if they could give the performance I like which is:-

1. Same bullet for sporting rifle/LR practice and stalking for repeatable practice with the equipment I use in the field ie economical price and allowed (monos not allowed at Bisley)

2. Very good BC

3. Reliable expansion at longer range

4. Very good expansion at normal range

5. Penetration sufficient to exit on behind shoulder perfect broadside but not on quartering/shoulder shots ie sufficient but not excessive.

These attributes have served me very well over time. I really don't care what material gives me that performance, it just so happens monos don't (yet).

I reckoned that non-toxics likely wouldn't necessarily replicate the same combination of performance characteristics of a particular lead bullet, but that they had a different mix of advantages, and it was a rethink of my preferences rather than a matching of abilities and disadvantages which I went for.

Interestingly given your first point, I found that 110gr V_MAX POI is less than 1/4" higher on average to 110gr TTSX with the same load of N135. Certainly the groups overlap and both bullets average around 0.8" for 5 shot groups with me shooting my rifle. So inexpensive practice was quite easy to achieve.

I am surprised that you can achieve your number 5 requirement consistently at different ranges on different species with the same lead core bullet. I would have thought that a bullet that would meet those conditions on a red at 200m would just go straight through a roe at 40m.

Have you explored the RWS twin tin core fragmenting bullet to see how that would measure up to your specifications?

Alan
 
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I'd happily use monos if they could give the performance I like which is:-

1. Same bullet for sporting rifle/LR practice and stalking for repeatable practice with the equipment I use in the field ie economical price and allowed (monos not allowed at Bisley)

2. Very good BC

3. Reliable expansion at longer range

4. Very good expansion at normal range

5. Penetration sufficient to exit on behind shoulder perfect broadside but not on quartering/shoulder shots ie sufficient but not excessive.

These attributes have served me very well over time. I really don't care what material gives me that performance, it just so happens monos don't (yet).

Well summarised.
 
Getting POI to coincide at 100m is not hard to do and differences in trajectory are so tiny as to be insignificant at ranges below 250m
As has been said above, a modicum of effort would give a cheap load for practice and a mono load for stalking
 
I'd happily use monos if they could give the performance I like which is:-

1. Same bullet for sporting rifle/LR practice and stalking for repeatable practice with the equipment I use in the field ie economical price and allowed (monos not allowed at Bisley)

2. Very good BC

3. Reliable expansion at longer range

4. Very good expansion at normal range

5. Penetration sufficient to exit on behind shoulder perfect broadside but not on quartering/shoulder shots ie sufficient but not excessive.

These attributes have served me very well over time. I really don't care what material gives me that performance, it just so happens monos don't (yet).

What is this magical bullet of which you speak!?

I use Fox Classic hunter 150gr in 308
Identical 100m POI to my chosen target bullet
The drops out to 300m are simple to remember. Past that am afraid I don’t see a genuine market of stalkers shooting game at those ranges
Beyond 250m the wind and the ability of the shooter negates the BC as most people can not demonstrate the windage performance difference in their own accuracy.

My target bullet is 175gr Sierra TMK/SMK - I use these out past 1000yds

The Fox bullets expand reliably at range and don’t fragment close up
Not sure why you would want to limit penetration, that is one of the primary reasons for using them and a consequence of how they work.

Not sure what range you are pushing your bullets on game but very very few lead cup and core bullets will work in all scenarios
It’s the reason for ELD-x, SST, ELR, game bullets in the market
 
Getting POI to coincide at 100m is not hard to do and differences in trajectory are so tiny as to be insignificant at ranges below 250m
As has been said above, a modicum of effort would give a cheap load for practice and a mono load for stalking

Not my experience in practice. 1 gun, 1 load, 1 scope, lots of practice = deadly. Each additional minor variable has a disproportionately large negative effect and in my opinion for no gain.

I used to love tinkering with loads. Now I prefer the stone cold certainty that if I aim at an eye I hit an eye.
 
What is this magical bullet of which you speak!?

I use Fox Classic hunter 150gr in 308
Identical 100m POI to my chosen target bullet
The drops out to 300m are simple to remember. Past that am afraid I don’t see a genuine market of stalkers shooting game at those ranges
Beyond 250m the wind and the ability of the shooter negates the BC as most people can not demonstrate the windage performance difference in their own accuracy.

My target bullet is 175gr Sierra TMK/SMK - I use these out past 1000yds

The Fox bullets expand reliably at range and don’t fragment close up
Not sure why you would want to limit penetration, that is one of the primary reasons for using them and a consequence of how they work.

Not sure what range you are pushing your bullets on game but very very few lead cup and core bullets will work in all scenarios
It’s the reason for ELD-x, SST, ELR, game bullets in the market
The magical bullet for me is 143gr eld-x. Brilliant bc, good expansion and penetration at any range from 10-1000m. I looked into non toxic a few years ago, I couldn’t find any bullet that would do all of the above.
 
"Good expansion" inside 50-75m for an ELD-X is explosive.... on a par with large calibre VMax
I don't put that down as a positive feature

There is no free lunch, you can not get a bullet that works at 10m to expand to the same degree at 300m without a trade off
 
I have been reading this thread with interest....also with my opinion swaying side to side as I can the logic of many opposing points.

But, I don’t think we can afford to be blinkered to the pressure and scrutiny that our sport has and will come under in the next decade. I have the sense that anything we don’t try to deal with quickly ourselves (e.g. putting toxic metals into the environment) is likely to come back and bite us and will be another reason for those who have a bigger agenda to eradicate shooting/hunting to point at our apparent contradiction of us claiming to be be the protectors of the outdoors while throwing poisonous material at it.

So, even though I have only ever developed loads for traditional bullets I am going to give the mono’s a go in my 6.5swede.

Anyone got some suggestions for a bullet and recipe as a starting point....Needs to cover fox through to reds at 50m to 250m. That’s what my 156 Sako Deerheads do today.
 
What about Copper Toxicity. I should imagine the danger to health is less than with lead if ingested ?

I do know of a chap that worked in a big electrical fabrication firm who cut his nose with a copper buzz bar, ended up with it eating half the side of his face away. A bit off the subject I know!!!

Lot of South African Ph`s are very keen on Mono bullets and I'm loading 300 Grain Barnes for next year. Used 7mm 140grain Barnes on plains game and they were very effective.
 
I've shot Barnes TSX exclusively for the last 5 years. No doubt someone has had all of the 'issues' using monolithics. I can honestly say I've not had any of them.
I've shot all the UK species with Barnes TSX apart from Chinese water deer. No problems evident.
 
"Good expansion" inside 50-75m for an ELD-X is explosive.... on a par with large calibre VMax
I don't put that down as a positive feature

There is no free lunch, you can not get a bullet that works at 10m to expand to the same degree at 300m without a trade off
I shoot a lot of deer at under 50m with mine, and don’t class the meat damage as excessive at all, no more than my .308 using 150gr soft points. I would rather a tendency for over expansion than under expansion.
 
What about Copper Toxicity. I should imagine the danger to health is less than with lead if ingested ?
snip...
Lot of South African Ph`s are very keen on Mono bullets and I'm loading 300 Grain Barnes for next year. Used 7mm 140grain Barnes on plains game and they were very effective.

Too much of anything is not good for us...especially if it is travelling very fast! :)

Trace Copper is necessary for our system...lead isn't...there is a reason why lead water pipes were replaced with copper...

www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?contenttypeid=167&contentid=total_copper_blood

"Adults have 50 and 80 milligrams (mg) of copper in their body, mostly in muscle and the liver. Copper helps make melanin, bone, and connective tissue. It also helps with many other processes in your body. You normally get copper through your diet, in foods like liver and other organ meats, seafood, beans, and whole grains. You get rid of copper in your bowel movements and urine.

Various health problems can disrupt normal copper levels. This can cause you to have too little copper (copper deficiency) or too much copper (copper toxicity).

Because a normal diet has plenty of copper, copper deficiency is unlikely except in certain cases. It can occur in malnourished children. This is especially true for premature babies who don't get nutritional supplements. Children with this condition tend to have bone abnormalities and fractures. Copper deficiency can also result from a rare genetic disorder called Menkes disease. This syndrome interferes with copper absorption. Copper deficiency can lead to problems with connective tissue, muscle weakness, anemia, low white blood cell count, neurological problems, and paleness.

Too much copper can be toxic. You can get too much copper from dietary supplements or from drinking contaminated water. You can also get too much copper from being around fungicides that have copper sulfate. You can also have too much copper if you have a condition that stops the body from getting rid of copper. For example, Wilson disease keeps the liver from storing copper safely and from sending copper out of the body in your stool. Extra copper in the liver overflows and builds up in the kidneys, brain, and eyes. This extra copper can kill liver cells and cause nerve damage. Wilson disease is fatal if untreated. Extra copper can also interfere with how your body absorbs zinc and iron."


snip..
I do know of a chap that worked in a big electrical fabrication firm who cut his nose with a copper buzz bar, ended up with it eating half the side of his face away. A bit off the subject I know!!!
snip...

The copper that transferred from the bus bar did that? Or did he get one of the flesh eating infections in the wound?

www.nhs.uk/conditions/necrotising-fasciitis/

"Necrotising fasciitis
Necrotising fasciitis is a rare but serious bacterial infection that affects the tissue beneath the skin and surrounding muscles and organs (fascia).
It's sometimes called the "flesh-eating disease", although the bacteria that cause it do not "eat" flesh, but release toxins that damage nearby tissue.

Necrotising fasciitis can start from a relatively minor injury, such as a small cut, but gets worse very quickly and can be life threatening if it's not recognised and treated early on."

The only copper alloy I know of that has to be treated carefully was the beryllium copper used for springs and electrical contactors...beryllium dust when grinding it is carcinogenic apparently.

Alan
 
Well Alan I think that is was a flesh eating wound. The company concerned manufactured industrial Electrical Main Boards, Intrinsically safe mining electrics etc and made lots of the components from scratch.
 
"Good expansion" inside 50-75m for an ELD-X is explosive.... on a par with large calibre VMax. I don't put that down as a positive feature

That's just not true. I shot four large billy goats at very close range last time out - 30 yards or so - poor buggers had corralled themselves into a corner of tight fencing and couldn't get out. This was with the 143gr 6.5mm. Each one was an instant collapse from a shoulder or angled sternum shot, passing through with an inch or so exit and a sizeable hole in the ground. Kaboof... No explosions.

I've shot a great many close goats with a 87gr V-Max in 6mm, with highly variable results ranging from HUGE messy exits to no exit at all. Haven't used larger calibre ones though.

I get that you want to argue in favour of monolithics and I really would like to try these Fox bullets, but saying that the ELD-X behaves like a varmint bullet at close range won't help much. Simply put, the 6.5mm ELD-X performs from 30yds to well over 600yds, if Fox can do that then please lets arrange to send me some, I'm all ears (and serious).
 
Out of interest, is there any photographic evidence of 500m/s (1640fps) terminal performance for these Fox bullets? They say the bullets will provide "adequate deformation" at this kind of speed. Which is interesting, because the TTSX absolutely won't.

From Field & Stream:

5C142212-6B59-4FBB-9590-9396A02ABDB8.jpeg
 
From foxbullets.eu:

"The Fox Classic hunter are lead-free bullets designed for all hunting situations that an European hunter can experience, from a close distance shot on a wild boar on a driven hunt, to an extremely long shot on a gams in the high mountains."

Hmmm. Are we saying we have a genuine long range hunting monolithic bullet?
 
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