Black Deer

6pointer

Account Suspended
#1
A new word in deer control and it means deer taken from one place and put through the food chain claiming it came from somewhere else. The scottish deer sector has expressed its concerns over the reports that some contractors might start to take or are already taking in deer from untrained individuals and put them through chillers as there own and claiming public moneys for them. It was mentioned at a high profile deer panel and there thoughts were that pressure of high culls and high incomes could create such a problem. Concerns were also expressed that contractors holding leases might put the deer from the lease through as contract deer. The damage assessment to FES crop has not reduced and in fact has risen slightly even though the numbers of deer cull has also risen. They are now looking in to way to make sure this dose not happen and making sure the venison industry dose not suffer any more ecoli scares with out traceability.
Any one know if this is just speculation?
 

jimmy milnes

Well-Known Member
#3
Yes harry I see what you are saying but I can also see with ever increasing numbers needed to be met how the temptation could be there from some less scrupulous people
I guess one way around it could be to not let lease holders also wear the hat of a contractor in order to avoid the issue
 

mudman

Well-Known Member
#5
Human nature as it is if they are paid well by the 'head' then of course some will be obtaining additional deer from outwith the cull areas and passing them off as legit, they would almost be daft not to.
 

countrryboy

Well-Known Member
#6
Most of the boys doing it will be so knackered after dragging/lardering all the deer they've lamped :stir: to bother scrounging deer around the nieghbour hood.

I take it this is only an issue when a contractor puts someone else's deer throu the larder ansd is not an issue when anyone with a DSC1/trained hunter status takes a deer of a mate to sell to game dealer or ame dealer takes deer of untrained hunters?
Never mind dealers chucking deer in vans alongside feather and other deer

Just seems like a very thinly veiled attack again on the FC, again. If any contractor is doing that there guilty of fruad but i doubt it is as widespread as u'd like to make out, but is a very good scare story to help ur vendetta against fc or contactors.
 
#7
Most of the boys doing it will be so knackered after dragging/lardering all the deer they've lamped :stir: to bother scrounging deer around the nieghbour hood.

I take it this is only an issue when a contractor puts someone else's deer throu the larder ansd is not an issue when anyone with a DSC1/trained hunter status takes a deer of a mate to sell to game dealer or ame dealer takes deer of untrained h
Never mind dealers chucking deer in vans alongside feather and other deer

Just seems like a very thinly veiled attack again on the FC, again. If any contractor is doing that there guilty of fruad but i doubt it is as widespread as u'd like to make out, but is a very good scare story to help ur vendetta against fc or contactors.
I don't know how common it is but it is happening and not just with FC contractors, most dealers are now refusing carcases from untrained hunters even though they can in certain circumstances, nor are they accepting someones word you are now needing to lodges a copy of your trained hunter status before dealing with them , no more Joe Blogs just turning up at he door with carcasses.

However some are getting around it by passing their carcases through a trained hunter.
 

6pointer

Account Suspended
#8
Countrryboy you might be correct but it happens and while you feel its an attack on the FC and there policy's then so be it. FC policy's have allowed this type of problem to happen and in my opinion are guilty of aiding and abetting if they do nothing to stop the practice. You mention lev 1 one and trained hunters putting deer in. I also feel that should be stopped and can be easy.Not to sure about Black deer looks like the public purse is large enough to buy quite a few of them .It all helps to prop up the numbers.
 
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countrryboy

Well-Known Member
#9
I have no doubt it goes on to, but it will be in no where near the numbers u'd like to make out.
But it suits ur agenda to start the rumor and give it a bit of air time and start other people thinking it too who don't know any better. U even ask if rumour is true at end or just speculation?
If it was brought up by any other poster it would have more validity to it, but u rarely post anything positive and normally it is negative about FC/contractors and are obviousy just stirring again.

U never seem to be as vocal on the likes of the JMT deer managment plan? Then again not much of a health risk lying rotting on the hill.

Basically any scheme set up by goveremnt bodies usually so incompetent that they have massive loop holes that unscrupulous dishonest people will always exploit.
The new 1 down our way is 1 dodgy character/gangster is buying/leasing places with old commercial RHI boimass boilers on the best tarriffs and just adding more burners just for the tarrif, same guy got 2 places i know off 1 has 32 boilers other 24, doubles his money for every kw of heat produced and heat is just wasted as he has nothing to heat there, bloody scandalous, and ur talking about big money every year.
Same as the previous SFP scheme with retiring farmers leasing 'naked acres' and still claiming SFP years after they've retired.

Not justify it or saying its ok but in the grand scheme of things of government corruption/fiddles/dodges it will be small change

And in theory can't really see any real health risk, these deer are still traceable, fair enough not back to where shot but these 'dodgy' contractors will be taking responsibility for them so if any problems will come back to them and the FC.
Can really see that going down well at contract renewal time if FC had to have there larders health tested due to bad practices by the subbies

BT. Thats good most game dealers are now insiting on seeing ur paperwork, only 5? or so years later.
I'm sure they're will be still plent of deer going throu estate larders where a 3rd party has shot on estate/elsewhere who has no hunter number thou, the vast majority will be innocent enough just using estates chiller or a mate helping a mate out rather than folk on the fiddle.
And that does not autmatically mean the venision will be a health risk, no more so than someone with a ticket whos forgot/ignores all the training
 

6pointer

Account Suspended
#10
Countrry Boy you seem to be saying this practice is ok ! Now I have three PM,s from members of this site and respected members all three from Scotland north to exact .I will not disclose there names from PM but I will post what one or two has written. The deer sector will need to change that will not happen if the truth is hidden and numbers are fudge by incorrect practices. Remember we are lamping because the restocks are suffering and we cant cope! .How will that change if deer get bought from others out with the FC areas and are then claimed as target animals (PUBLIC CASH). Shocking practice and should be looked into as should any contractors holding deer control leases (Conflict of interest).

It is about time it has reached someone at a high level. It is rife up here and has been going on for years and as you say, cull figures may indeed have gone up but restocks has still suffered severe/greater damage.

Being going on for years Dave!!!!!
 
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countrryboy

Well-Known Member
#11
There is no doubt it goes on and i'm not justifying it or saying its ok, just not using it as a hobby horse/1 man crusade either.

But u just will not get the numbers u think, deer off estates will have to go throu the estates books or the stalker there gets sacked, deer of private forestry will have to go throu there own larder to show there doing the job, so ur only really talking about a few deer shot by amatuers (or poachers), on private land/farms. Yes it could be a few deer a week which will add up but it won't be wholesale numbers and the lion share will still be coming of FC land. Even deer shot on FC leases are meant to go throu that lease (used to collect jaw bones not sure if still do, and yes that could be fiddled too)
The bigger problem is that many deer will be shot in the most accesable places (next to roads) rather than the most vurnerable places.
But thats wot happens when u put a cash price on them and time=money, and bring in subbies but their simply isn't the employed manpower there used to be

Forestry has a big problem with transient deer herds, esp hill reds looking for shelter and with the lack of fencing.
But any solution is far far deeper than restricting lamping or stopping these 'black deer', and i have no real idea wot the solution is.
Althou 1 thing u did say on a similar thread that i always remembered that made sense was paying more for females than males to bring populations down, which would be a step in right directin and take some strain of neighbouring sporting estates

Down in the sw scot and ur area it will not be very common at all, althou i'm sure it still happens occasionally by the odd rogue.
Further north faces some very different problems than to down south scot thou

Further north i have absolutely no doubt there are some major issues the way forestry, estates, grouse and deer interact, never mind throwing the 'alleged conservationists' and massive demand to have natural regen with no fences, but the issues are far bigger than black deer
 

Taff

Well-Known Member
#12
I don't know how common it is but it is happening and not just with FC contractors, most dealers are now refusing carcases from untrained hunters even though they can in certain circumstances, nor are they accepting someones word you are now needing to lodges a copy of your trained hunter status before dealing with them , no more Joe Blogs just turning up at he door with carcasses.

However some are getting around it by passing their carcases through a trained hunter.
Every dealer I have used since the introduction of trained hunter status, as always required a copy of your cert before taking deer off you.
 

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