BMH crimes

[barongcw]

Bravo.

I agree again.

Must be careful it does not become a habit.

 

[barongcw]

I think that 6p does raise a debatable point. I have a BMH that is more than capable of successfully tracking old tracks but not once in a practical situation have I had to use these powers. The dog will indicate the presence of unseen deer and if I do happen to have a mishap he will locate the wounded/normally dead deer but I certainly will not be hanging about 12 plus hours after the mishap just so that he can prove that he can follow a cold trail. Now if I came to the conclusion that I had no use for the dog's ability to cold track and did not develop this side of the dog am I really not a worthy owner of a BMH, can I not conclude that my dog is a working dog. On the other hand I can see the side which says that this breed of dog has been specifically developed over generations to be an expert in cold tracking, we must keep that ability at the fore and only breed from stock that can be proved to possess that ability.

Obviously practise makes perfect but a cold track every month or so of a mile keeps the dog on her/his toes. The only problem you will have is to find somebody to lay the track for you with tracking shoes and no more than 200 ml blood.

It is bloody hard work laying tracks.

But it works. Robbo reported elsewhere on the forum about a tracking test we went to in Belgium. One of the hounds did the 800 meters + in heavy terrain climbing over treestumps in 11 minutes, the hound totally disregarded roe running away as well as a litter of foxes, I could not keep up. When I asked how on earth did you manage that, the answer was plenty of practise AND plenty of training.

 

[Thar]

I am not a BMH owner as most of you gents know but a GWP owner.

My view on this is similar to Davie’s, the total obsession with tracking an old trail is of little value here in the UK. While I appreciate that it is a test and like so much in life once you get a couple of enthusiasts together some individuals will have to have a some form of competition to prove “my dog is better than yours” then the winner can make more money from its next breeding because he has won this or that test.

I have tracked a 24h hour old trail for 2 Km with an 18 month old GWP is that good or bad for a tracking exam? I haven’t a clue. For every hour my dog has spent tracking for myself and other syndicate members it has spent 100 or more using air scent to find un-seen deer for me, I would guess that any working dog with a bit of nose could find a deer on a hot trail up to 30 minutes old, which if the dog is working for me is all that would be necessary.

As said most deer shot here are stalked not driven, there is no practical advantage having a dog that can track a 48 hour trail, if it has took you or the person who made the cock up that long to get on the trail the people involved need to look to themselves to why they have left the animal suffering for so long. In most cases a 12 hour trail should be the oldest you need to follow, normal when tracking a deer shot at last night but followed up in the morning. There is far more to a stalking dog than following a trail, unless you really are that a poor shot. For the guys that stalk in England how far could most of them practically track a deer before they came to a boundary fence or main road?


I was told recently that in one tracking test held here in the UK was won by a 10 year old GWP, beating all the BMH and Hanover’s, the owner is a member on here and one of the best trainers in the UK IMO. Having the right dog is only part of the equation.

IMO some of hound owners seem to be blindly exhorting the value of the ability to track while completely ignoring what values the average UK deer stalker requires from his deer dog.

ATB

Tahr

 

[barongcw]

I am not a BMH owner as most of you gents know but a GWP owner.

My view on this is similar to Davie’s, the total obsession with tracking an old trail is of little value here in the UK. While I appreciate that it is a test and like so much in life once you get a couple of enthusiasts together some individuals will have to have a some form of competition to prove “my dog is better than yours” then the winner can make more money from its next breeding because he has won this or that test.

I have tracked a 24h hour old trail for 2 Km with an 18 month old GWP is that good or bad for a tracking exam? I haven’t a clue. For every hour my dog has spent tracking for myself and other syndicate members it has spent 100 or more using air scent to find un-seen deer for me, I would guess that any working dog with a bit of nose could find a deer on a hot trail up to 30 minutes old, which if the dog is working for me is all that would be necessary.

As said most deer shot here are stalked not driven, there is no practical advantage having a dog that can track a 48 hour trail, if it has took you or the person who made the cock up that long to get on the trail the people involved need to look to themselves to why they have left the animal suffering for so long. In most cases a 12 hour trail should be the oldest you need to follow, normal when tracking a deer shot at last night but followed up in the morning. There is far more to a stalking dog than following a trail, unless you really are that a poor shot. For the guys that stalk in England how far could most of them practically track a deer before they came to a boundary fence or main road?


I was told recently that in one tracking test held here in the UK was won by a 10 year old GWP, beating all the BMH and Hanover’s, the owner is a member on here and one of the best trainers in the UK IMO. Having the right dog is only part of the equation.

IMO some of hound owners seem to be blindly exhorting the value of the ability to track while completely ignoring what values the average UK deer stalker requires from his deer dog.

ATB

Tahr

Agree with especially your last point. The average stalker does not need a tracking hound. According to German figures 95% of roedeer shot are found within 200 yards. Do not have the figures forfallow to hand.

But it is fun to have an F1 car and even if you are not racing with it, it still can give pleasure. And an occasional race keeps both you and the car in tip top shape.

 

[KevinF]

Kevin (Thar) -

I think the people who value the ability of the BMH to track stone cold are simply wishing to see the BMH breed maintain its integrity.

I agree with you that such an ability is as much use as a chocolate fireguard for most UK conditions. However, if the breed was made to show such skills, it would be a shame to lose it, IMHO.

I support the BMH Society in its aims.

 

[6pointer]

Kevin F do you also think that the gwp should be made to quarter on a moor and hold point. Do you also think that a terrier should also be placed to ground on a regular basis just to prove it can. I am not against the tests and can understand there being i will encorage my wee bitch to follow a line but just for a bit of fun so that i can talk the talk with the tweed skirted ladys that seem to jump on any new working breed, These tests will give them a reason to strutt.
I do wounder what these well trained dogs would be like if they EVER get the chance to follow a wounded deer and need to deal with it also the owners faces when they need to get a knife out of there ample knickers to bring a swift end to a good track.

I will keep every one informed on my pup,s progress warts and all.!!

 

[KevinF]

Kevin F do you also think that the gwp should be made to quarter on a moor and hold point...

Personally, I think any breed should be capable of doing what it was originally bred to do. If it cannot, then I feel that we have lost something that was; characteristics that many people worked hard to fix in the breed.

As a trainer I know remarked: the Victorians bequeathed us a legacy of fabulous working breeds, and many of them have been ruined in a single human generation.

To my mind perhaps the ultimate expression of wrong-headed breeding policy is the show dog wherein 'original' working ability has taken second place to aesthetic considerations.

I am sure that no breed society believes it is realistic to compel anyone to have their dog take a cold trailing test, mandate the provision of a validated pedigree, have the dog hip scored, or prevent it from being crossed with its sister or a Labrador. Breed societies are realistic and surely must accept that there will always be those who have a contrary view.

By promoting a breed standard and publishing an ethical policy, the BMH Society is giving would-be BMH owners a choice that some may find attractive.

 

[barongcw]

Kevin F do you also think that the gwp should be made to quarter on a moor and hold point. Do you also think that a terrier should also be placed to ground on a regular basis just to prove it can. I am not against the tests and can understand there being i will encorage my wee bitch to follow a line but just for a bit of fun so that i can talk the talk with the tweed skirted ladys that seem to jump on any new working breed, These tests will give them a reason to strutt.
I do wounder what these well trained dogs would be like if they EVER get the chance to follow a wounded deer and need to deal with it also the owners faces when they need to get a knife our of there ample knickers to bring a swift end to a good track.

I will keep every one informed on my pup,s progress warts and all.!!

That is an easy one to answer.

A well trained hound will stop the deer and draw its attention thus enabling the handler to get close enough to shoot it. That is why the handler and only the handler carries a rifle when tracking.

If the deer is so nearly dead that you can approach it with a knife then I would do that, but only because I practised this numerous times on dead deer with my vet daughter watching me to see I got the right spot straight away.

Just because a hound is well trained does not mean he does not work in the field but not everybody has so much fieldwork that he can dispense with training.

I am already looking forward to your comments when the first HS will appear ar Crufts. Sweet dreams.

 

[inverwire]

There is nothing wrong with finding a deer you have shot on a hot track. Lets face it 99% of tracking is just that. Of course Uk tracking will evolve into its own form just like Swedish tracking has evolved to cover the game we hunt and the way we hunt.
Lets face it UK stalking has evolved into its own model that has taken bits from other countries ways and traditions to make it its own.
The UK do's not have so many Rta's to follow up like we do in Scandinavia where its compulsory to report Rta's. Nearly 50000 call outs for tracking last year if my memory serves me right. Many of these tracks would be cold tracks many hours old.
My point is why have a tracking dog that has not been trained to its full potenial. If you only have to track a cold track a couple of times in the dogs life then the training has been worth doing.
1 lost deer is a lost deer to many.
All this drivel spouted by 6p obout bits of paper and the way a dogs is trained is just ignorance on his part about how you TRAIN a dog to a reasonable level.

Totally agree Jagare,no matter what breed, taking it too the highest level you can as an individual is a challenge in its self,correct breeding programnes/health testing /and rigourus documention, etc is essential for any breed too thrive and move on to next level, 6p is simply wrong in saying (imagine putting a wire in harness and lead) for this is whats required for part with the BRINGSEL and TORVBELLERS as for the gwp bred too hunt alone definatly not///he is encouraged to hunt whatever the discipline ,wether near or far but should always be at one with his handler,

 

[6pointer]

Inverware i dont think so mate i think your well off the mark why would any one train a dog to bark at a deer till they get there when they are already on the end of a lead. Or why train them to bring a bit of leather strap back to show they had found the deer after they find when they are attached to a harness.God should you people really have dogs at all.

Its not the dogs that are the problem getting to the top level but there owners. inver are yours trained in any of the disaplines you discribe.

 

[Thar]

Hi Kevin

I understand what you are saying and I don’t have any issue with the BMH Society trying to retain the breeds’ integrity, if fact they would get my full support, if you have read any of my posts on cross breeding other breeds you would realise that. When I breed from my own GWP I did my up most to make sure I kept to the breed standard.

The use of the Hounds to follow extensively old trails is tracking for tracking sake, of cause for the proponents of this; it is a sport in itself. I don’t have any problem with people doing this as a sport so long as it not promoted as it is necessary trait for a Deer dog, as said tracking is only a small part of what I expect from a deer dog.

Anybody seen a working Black Mouth-Cure?

ATB

Tahr

 

[inverwire]

Inverware i dont think so mate i think your well off the mark why would any one train a dog to bark at a deer till they get there when they are already on the end of a lead. Or why train them to bring a bit of leather strap back to show they had found the deer after they find when they are attached to a harness.God should you people really have dogs at all.

Its not the dogs that are the problem getting to the top level but there owners. inver are yours trained in any of the disaplines you discribe.

6p go and find out whats required in each discipline/and at what stage the harness/lead/toggle is used,and when the dog uses tongue in torvesbella, i am all for constructive critisim but your ignorance off subject is there for all too see ,i have trained my dog too bringsel in past out of my wiggmansburg bitch whos sire was ARCO VON BILLETAL A GERMAN IMPORT and the first or certainly one first solid livers in the country, anyway 6p take the blinkers off theres a big world out their as a footnote the above dog was sold too a working home as a pup 5 mths later i took him back gave the guy his money back ,it took me a year too get him too full health for he had developed a BILATERAL CARPAL LAXITY, CAUSED , by the buyers total lack knowledge and ignorance off the breed /diet/ etc and it was a credit too dog himself and his breeding ,that he was trained eventually too the bringsel ,he was later put too sleep having developed other problems later life which was directly related too his earlier abuse he suffered in first 4 mths his life due too someone failing too too understand the BASIC requirements off the breed

 

[6pointer]

Inver i think it is you that has an arogance that comes only from a chap who , Knows nowt. to me your a chap that dont do much deer stalking with dogs. Now this is not a german dog training site.Its deerstalking site, so how many deer have you tracked that have been alive i have tracked lots that have still been well up for the fight i have seen GWP shakeing big bucks up and down the park terriers hagging from the nose of a well up for it buck and i have worked and seen bringsel methoed used regular. This is not a test mate but a real world and you explain to me how all that **** trainin teaches the dog and you to deal with all the senarios that get thrown up while out stalking. You as a traker must find it very hard to take a shot at a deer while a dog is in the full mix?. You must also find it hard to sen a dog in with bingsel attached while still on a lead.
To me if you take the training to far with out the real thing it is like target shooting with out deerstalking it might make you a good shot but it dont make you a good deerstalker.
I could not care less if the BMH wins cufts i know this when i look for a stud dog or a puppy i will be looking to a chap or lady that has worked her dogs succefully in the field week in week out. We called it proving our dogs. Inver it is a big world out there you stick training dogs and i will stick to working them.

 

[KevinF]

Now then; that's a very fine looking dog.

 

[sikamalc]

Gentlemen,

can I just add that this is also not a site where we call into question anyones abilities as a dog owner we are all grown ups so lets not start throwing accusations around PLEASE!!

We all have our own opinions on what we expect from our dogs, and on many issues we all agree, but ADMIN will not tolerate those that start to call into question other peoples abilities on an open forum.

As a side note I work Todd off the lead and he will bark consistantly and bay a deer if standing or moving. On the other hand if the deer is dead he will report once or twice and then return to me and take me to the deer. As yet he has never failed!!

However I have never been able to teach my dog the Brinsel method. I am aware that the Bavarian Club on the continent has very high standards, these standards to improve and maintain the breed in the UK are all for the good. I do not profess to be an expert in Bav's, only having been involved with them for 7 years. However for me, Todd works the way I want him to and without doubt is the best dog I have ever owned.

I also am a friend of a man who has had Bav's for many years, longer than I dare say many on here and have always been impressed by his devotion to the breed. He also attends the Bavarian Club meeting in Bavaria on odd occassions and has trailed his dogs in the past.

Best wishes

Sikamalc

 

[jamross65]

My deer dog has an easy life to be honest. If she did not then surely myself or any guests must be getting it wrong a lot of the time!

Any dog if trained could likely follow up a warm scent from a wounded beast. My mate used to use his border collie on pheasants and she was superb at it.

Just like my other gun dogs they rarely have to follow a running pheasant for 200yds but they could do it if asked. That is why I keep them sharp throughout the year with dummy and whistle training no matter how much work they have during the season.

If I was after a wounded deer I would be out till all hours with a torch trying to find it so myself or the guest can go home with peace of mind that night. Whether it was too easy for the dog or not.

Having said all that, I spoke with a couple from the site regarding Hanoverians and the type of stalking I do. I told them I tend to neck/head shoot so my dog often has to find the deer on wind scent as generally they are lying where they were shot but often in tall grass or ferns. They admitted this would be no challenge for a scenthound on wind scent or on a fresh ground scent of a wounded deer but providing I kept it sharp with the odd weekly (or so) challenge with a 24hr old cold scent they saw no problems in me having this breed. The point I am making is there is a distinct difference between setting the dog challenges to keep on top of its game (training), and actually employing this ability at varying levels in the field.

This has already been alluded to in this thread.

Does that mean I should not get a BMH or HS? Not in my opinion it doesn't...

 

[clivecleaver]

I don't want to get dragged into this debate as its obvious certain people are not interested in listening to other people views on the subject.

All I want to say is that I have a BMH and I'm over the moon with how he is as a stalking companion and a work tool. His tempermant is excellent to.

To the address the point its pointless having a dog that can track a cold scent over 12 hours old in england is ridiculous. Can I ask those who have tracking dogs do they never offer there services to friends or
follow up after RTA's as if they do they may well not be available to go out the same day and therefore a tracking dog capable of following a cold scent of age
Is essential??!

 

[Orion]

Does that mean I should not get a BMH or HS? Not in my opinion it doesn't...

(jamross65 - this is not directed at you, I've quoted you because it seems appropriate)

Absolutely not IMO also. And neither should those who wish to enter their dogs for the formalised tests or trials be criticised for attempting to keep to the breed ethos and maintain standards - so I can't understand why this has turned into such a slanging match. You use your dog in the way that best suits you. If you happen to have a BMH or HS then you have the possibility to develop the scent tracking/trailling aspect, (leashed or otherwise), that they were bred for - and possibly take them to a different level for cold tracking compared to predominately air scenting breeds.

At the moment I don't personally have the amount of 'live' blood trailling, (most seem to keel over on the spot!), that would allow my dog to work to his full potential. However, it's also myself that can learn so much from working him on artificial lines and seeing the reaction to problems that are set - and I'm amazed by his scenting ability and the way he can work things out. The same is true of what I've learnt at the BMH & NGO days that I've attended, there's just so much more to it than putting a dog on a line. I don't even think that blood/deer trailling is the be all and end all, as I'm seriously considering using him with our local search and rescue group.

Obviously YMMV - we are all individuals, so do what suits your own circumstances, maybe with a little less sniping at other's preferences.

 

[barongcw]

Inverware i dont think so mate i think your well off the mark why would any one train a dog to bark at a deer till they get there when they are already on the end of a lead. Or why train them to bring a bit of leather strap back to show they had found the deer after they find when they are attached to a harness.God should you people really have dogs at all.

Its not the dogs that are the problem getting to the top level but there owners. inver are yours trained in any of the disaplines you discribe.

The reason why you want your hound to bark is quite simple.

If after you tracking the deer you see it leaving its last woundbed you slip your dog. She then has to halt to deer whilst you approach to kill it with a rifle shot.

One more reason for having a hound with a pedigree; you want to breed hounds that are not afraid of a deer nor so agressive that they try to pull it down. That will work with roe but it would soon be the end of your hound if he did that with a big stag or a large wild boar.

You can only find that out by making the parents each do a real live test on a wounded deer. Only when they have both passed are you allowed to breed from them.

The Hungarian export pedigree even states if the hound has not passed that test" The parent does not fulfill the required qualification". The buyer is thus aware that he has a 100% Hanoverian but without it being tested on the live chase.

If you have a hound that you would like to pass this test you are put on a list, you might then get a phonecall saying " be 300 miles away at spot X tomorrow morning". That is the reason why you train your hounds at tracks of 36 hours.

 

[6pointer]

Baron first of all my bitch has a very very good pedigree and i did check before i bought her.The other thing is only a fool would let a dog run free with a harness on chasing a deer or wild boar through some of the areas i work they might get hung up miles from me or worse on a set of antlers.(JMHO) I would not shoot at a deer while my dog was very close by or holding a deer and i hope that this wee bitch will stick tight.I really dont need to tell you the reason,s. i Think i live test i a good idea and i also think the tracking test would be good fun but as yet i do not see any real benifit from having them this side of the water. How many tracking test do the society run every year are thay nation wide is there a heavy cost related to there test,s that would proclude people. This is a new breed here and here is a differnt type of hunting and to get the everything out of my dog i will need it to do more!! than track. WHY MUST I PUT MY DOG ON A TRACKING LEAD TO FOLLOW A WOUNDED DEER (RULES NOT NEEDED AND DETRIMENTAL TO THE FUTURE OF THE BREED IF YOU ASK ME) AGAIN JUST MY OPINION. DO THE HV BM Society have any live tests at all.
Baron i am aware of why a dog barks or brings back a strap or comes back to lead you in. It is so that the free runing dogs can tell you were the deer is because your not attached. I wounder how many BMH owners have tried taking a shot at a live deer wounded while holding on to a 50 mtr lead.