BMH - problem asking dog to get into the boot

An Taín Hunting Outfitter

Well-Known Member
I have a strange query which I realllllllly need help on.

i know on this site we usually talk about in the field issues but here is an at home one which is beginning to become persistent so I need to nip it in the bud.

Here are my 2 scenarios:

1). I get dog from pen, dog goes on lead excited as hell as he knows he is going somewhere, dog asked to sit, boot opens, dog waits for command 'hup' and boom dog shoots into the boot. No problem.
When leaving relatives dog lead out on lead, and same again boom! Dog flies into the boot. No problem.

2). I go to pen, get dog. NO LEAD this time, dog asked to heel, dog flies off, boot opens, dog refuses blindly to respond to any command whatsoever. Will not heel. Will not sit. Will not recall. 45mins spent waiting or I go to open the front door so dog runs over as if to get in and then I can CALMLY put my hand on his collar and lead him over to the boot. Loads of praise and 'hup in', dog jumps into the boot. But dare I take my hand of his collar before then.
Leaving relatives, dog gets mad excited as he hears my car keys jingle and knows he is going somewhere in the car. I walk out of relatives house with dog off lead, open boot, no front door to open as he knows it's not his house so cannot use this ruse like at my own home and then....boom! Off he shoots and will not respond in any way whatsoever. Wait for 25-45mins sometimes thinking what am I doing wrong.

So the problem is not just recall. He just goes on complete rebellion. He is 10months old. When he activates this state he is not showing a fear response as in "I am not coming back as I am afraid". Instead he stands very tall and goes straight into hunt mode but even when I get on my hunkers and call he looks and kinda says "screw you, you can't catch me' and off he goes.

I lead train him every day on a long line. He recalls, sits, stays and hunts up exactly as I command with loads of praise. I make this very fun for him, sometimes includes items he enjoys as time out for me and him. I reward his on the long line recall with the tiniest pieces of bacon lardons trying to phase out 'off the lead disobedience', and it works wonders, but on the long line only.

so my queries to those who have been through this is:

1. What has brought about this complete lack of obedience when off the long line?

2. Has anyone been through this before and how did they remedy it?

3. How do I reward good behaviour rather than focus on reprimanding bad behaviour, if I can't even get close to him when off the long line?

4. Also this is a problem which the pup came to me with but I am having trouble phasing out? It seems the happier he is the more disobedience I receive when he is off the long line.

i am thinking of this in a hill scenario, as in "stop! Do not follow that running pregnant ewe!". If his tracking is spot on but obedience is lacking he is in no fit state for the hill.

keeping him always on the long line is my alternative for now but I need him to follow at my heel, steady to he shot, long line on and begin tracking. The Irish hill and wild woodland is so wild it will not suit to always have him on the longline. He must be able to follow me independently.

Thanks guys, hope the post isn't too long.

p.s. As with many BMHs this wee pup can be as bold as brass with some things and when deciding to hunt up disobediently (broke my heart a few times running off for 45mins during a stalk) but very nervous in other things especially in my presence. It is like he is afraid of me but I only ever try to boost his confidence and reward positive responses. He does get the odd 'noooooo' (said calmly) but the same as any other pup pushing the boundary.

also I have trained some great springers for the gun, but this pup just isn't responding to the same reward mechanisms.
 
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An Taín Hunting Outfitter

Well-Known Member
I have a strange query which I realllllllly need help on.

i know on this site we usually talk about in the field issues but here is an at home one which is beginning to become persistent so I need to nip it in the bud.

Here are my 2 scenarios:

1). I get dog from pen, dog goes on lead excited as hell as he knows he is going somewhere, dog asked to sit, boot opens, dog waits for command 'hup' and boom dog shoots into the boot. No problem.
When leaving relatives dog lead out on lead, and same again boom! Dog flies into the boot. No problem.

2). I go to pen, get dog. NO LEAD this time, dog asked to heel, dog flies off, boot opens, dog refuses blindly to respond to any command whatsoever. Will not heel. Will not sit. Will not recall. 45mins spent waiting or I go to open the front door so dog runs over as if to get in and then I can CALMLY put my hand on his collar and lead him over to the boot. Loads of praise and 'hup in', dog jumps into the boot. But dare I take my hand of his collar before then.
Leaving relatives, dog gets mad excited as he hears my car keys jingle and knows he is going somewhere in the car. I walk out of relatives house with dog off lead, open boot, no front door to open as he knows it's not his house so cannot use this ruse like at my own home and then....boom! Off he shoots and will not respond in any way whatsoever. Wait for 25-45mins sometimes thinking what am I doing wrong.

So the problem is not just recall. He just goes on complete rebellion. He is 10months old. When he activates this state he is not showing a fear response as in "I am not coming back as I am afraid". Instead he stands very tall and goes straight into hunt mode but even when I get on my hunkers and call he looks and kinda says "screw you, you can't catch me' and off he goes.

I lead train him every day on a long line. He recalls, sits, stays and hunts up exactly as I command with loads of praise. I make this very fun for him, sometimes includes items he enjoys as time out for me and him. I reward his on the long line recall with the tiniest pieces of bacon lardons trying to phase out 'off the lead disobedience', and it works wonders, but on the long line only.

so my queries to those who have been through this is:

1. What has brought about this complete lack of obedience when off the long line?

2. Has anyone been through this before and how did they remedy it?

3. How do I reward good behaviour rather than focus on reprimanding bad behaviour, if I can't even get close to him when off the long line?

4. Also this is a problem which the pup came to me with but I am having trouble phasing out? It seems the happier he is the more disobedience I receive when he is off the long line.

i am thinking of this in a hill scenario, as in "stop! Do not follow that running pregnant ewe!". If his tracking is spot on but obedience is lacking he is in no fit state for the hill.

keeping him always on the long line is my alternative for now but I need him to follow at my heel, steady to he shot, long line on and begin tracking. The Irish hill and wild woodland is so wild it will not suit to always have him on the longline. He must be able to follow me independently.

Thanks guys, hope the post isn't too long.

p.s. As with many BMHs this wee pup can be as bold as brass with some things and when deciding to hunt up disobediently (broke my heart a few times running off for 45mins during a stalk) but very nervous in other things especially in my presence. It is like he is afraid of me but I only ever try to boost his confidence and reward positive responses. He does get the odd 'noooooo' (said calmly) but the same as any other pup pushing the boundary.

also I have trained some great springers for the gun, but this pup just isn't responding to the same reward mechanisms.


By the the way I know in a German context this wee dog would be superb and hunting up independently off the long line, bringing game to bay and barking til the shooter arrives. But can this character be changed to work in an Ireland/UK context with many of the wilder attributes being controlled?
 

leec6.5

Well-Known Member
Ah ha you have finally realised to have a hound and not and not a lab!

Do what I do pick dog up put in boot simples!
 
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norma 308

Well-Known Member
feckin teenagers they just won't do as thier told and sulk and do what they want to do !!how many times have you heard that !
back to basics one step at a time it eventually sinks in or the penny drops with age in a couple of months time you'll wonder what the fuss was about .
 

Ranger22

Well-Known Member
Put the lead on in the house. It's a pup and full of energy and excited after being in the house and doing little, just wanting to play. You maybe expecting to much of him to soon but I'm not very knowledgeable about how BMH are
 

jimmy milnes

Well-Known Member
The dog obviously knows he's not on the lead and so being faster than you he can take the p.ss and boss you, I'd be taking the car to somewhere when I can control the situation better ie.. is more enclosed so you can catch and scruff him showing him he's not the boss and he must do as he's told "it's a battle you MUST win" other than that if no enclosed area available I'd use a very light "ie. Paracord" long line so hopefully the dog doesn't realise it's on a line until it comes to a sharp stop. The enclosed area would be best if you can find it
I'm no expert but and maybe someone can come up with a better bit of advice but this is what I'd try.
Whatever don't let the dog win as like said earlier up the posts teenage stage and trying it on
Jimmy
 

An Taín Hunting Outfitter

Well-Known Member
I tried the "I'm the boss" thing about two months ago and it put me almost a month back in training. He just responded way more nervously and it took weeks for him to come back on recall. Basically it was just like you guys said, got my hand on him, a good twist of the scruff and a "come back when your called!". Worst thing I could ever have done.

Amazingly his hunting up alone is like clockwork and it bloody amazes me when I am in wild forest and bogland. How in god's name can a dog at 10 months old go off on the wildest of ground, with no visible point of reference, be spotted on a far away hill hunting away and then come back to me 45mins later. I am not messing, when I watch the German videos I think....my pup hunts like that at 10months old!

I have tried the para chord, letting him trail about 30feet of it, but he knows when it's on and behaves so well like he is on a long line.

the million dollar dog behaviour question is this:

How do you stop a dog and make it comeback when it is off the lead, ten times faster than a human and highly independent? How do you reprimand a dog that does not stop or recall when reward works only when on a long line?

I might bring in a new stimulus. A stop whistle. Blast means stop and a bacon Lardon. Then when he sees the stop whistle and a hand signal becomes a new game change it back to a voice command. But that will take a good fortnight. One to think about.
 

Ranger22

Well-Known Member
If the dog won't come back , firstly don't chase him - he will think it's a game. I would walk away from from him giving your recall signal whilst walking. When he comes back, don't give him a row - it won't understand why it is getting a row for coming back.

Try again with a long line and keep it in your hand, I certainly wouldn't be letting any dog that age hunt away in front of me. That maybe part of your problem, he's having too much fun away from you.

When i'm training a dog, it has to learn the basics first and be very good at these before I move onto anything else
 

Co1

Well-Known Member
I progressed from a long line to a short line of about 5' when training recall and heel. The reduction in weight gives a bit more freedom and feels nearer to being off leash, but she know it is there. Just let it hang off the collar and if he gets a couple of foot in front just step on it and say heel or whatever your command is. After this move to to just "heel" without stepping on the line and then finally remove the line altogether. Until you have this sorted, just take him to the car on the lead.

Mine was the same at about that age, but at about 14 months everything clicked and her recall is now superb. Her heeling is OK, but needs lots of verbal commands so not yet great for stalking. One of the things that pushed me over the tipping point on recall was using a retrieve as a reward instead of a food treat. She loves to retrieve so I just keep a ball with me when out with her. Every 5 recalls or so and she gets a ball to chase and bring back. You need to find that one thing he/she loves more than anything else and reward only the best behaviour with that.
 

.25-06

Well-Known Member
The reward for returning to the car must be better than the free play. When leaving the car leave a little biscuit on the bed.
Had similar problems with a gsp .
Obviously you'll need to get the lead on him before to start with.
 

rem284

Well-Known Member
1. What has brought about this complete lack of obedience when off the long line?
Sounds like he has learnt that he can get a way with it because you are not able to make contact him. My thoughts on using a long line is to "brain wash" the dog into believing you have that physical means to "make" him obey or in other words give him a correction. My advise would be go back to heel work on a lead and then go on to heel work on the long line.

As some have said it may be in part the nature of the beast, it is not a gun dog, it is a hound. I have not had a BMH so not sure how much of this may be the issue
 

P@ul

Well-Known Member
Start doing some basic training as you have been but start using two leads. For example take the dog from the kennel but put both leads on at the same time and make your way to the car, sit the dog up and remove only one lead and then command the dog into the car, if he fails just lift him in without any fuss, if he obeys praise him and gradually stop further from the car each time. You can also do a lot of basic training removing and replacing one of the leads frequently so he forgets about the other lead.
Sounds more complicated than it actually is but I hope you get the idea.
Paul
 

countrryboy

Well-Known Member
I think it was the late Joe Irving that wrote the biggest trick about training a dog is never let it know u can't catch it.

So possibly when it was younger u'd mibee chase it down if needs must and catch it, wether or not u give the dog a row will depend on the dog/circumstances but as long as u catch it. But u have to pick ur battles, ie small enclosed spaces where u have more control.

The 2 lead thing mentioned above can work also, possibly try it with 2 long lines.


Must admit like most on here i have no experience with hounds, but the thoery/pscology should be the same just u will never get the high levels of obedience u'd expect in a gundog. Some say the same about hpr's and no doubt they are very different at times but i've had my best advice of a really good spaniel trainer.

To me it seems more a general obedience problem possibly with a bit of dominance and teenage years kicking in.
With a lab if i knew i had done the basic properely previously i'd almost ignore it and keep it on a lead as it would soon grow out of it, but completely different if basics are not already well trained

If it was just a car boot problem and didn't like going in car full stop, feeding in boot would help but that does not seem to be the issue this time

Also every dog is different mentally, some u can scruff and shake and never even bat an eyelid while others u can just raise there voice can put its tail between its legs, U must be the boss, that doesn't mean u have to batter ur dog but it must realise if u give a command if must be followed, if it does it gets praise/treat if it ignores a command there will be consequances (wether a low no/growl etc or bollocking will depend on dog and wot it ignored) it cannot be allowed to self reward itself ie running about as that will only make the problem worse

I'd say back to puppy basics heel and recall, stop if u want (would imagine it will take longer than 2 weeks to train a stop whistle thou, if u decide to train it u could intro it at meal times when it sits for it's food) u could still proggress with ur tracking training but just on a long line


Sorry wot do u mean about ur dog of hunting in the hills on the horizion for 45mins at a time?
Are u letting it free hunt with absolutely no control or boundries?
 

An Taín Hunting Outfitter

Well-Known Member
I have tried all of the above. 2 lines/leads and always being able to catch him.

He is just sooooooooo headstrong. He is an absolutely solid pup, as sharp as a razor, but out of all the actions you guys are right.......how do I make him think that he is never uncatchable. It has to be drill and a 30ft long parachord long line trailing round the field.

This is going to sound absolutely ridiculous but I think I have him in too good a shape. As he is in the condition of a race horse the wee fella knows it. He is so hyperactive in that even though on the lead or long line he will patiently walk beside me, off the long line he sees this as his ability to expel all that hunting energy and just wants to run. Back to the drawing board to go from basics. But ya know what, it is the try try and try again which makes the bond and the teamwork. I have seen so many good dogs just not given the time to mature with some real hard graft put in to get the best from the pup regardless of the discipline.
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
BMH take about 2+ years to come into their own. The dogs are completely different to the bitches. Patience and a firm but steady hand with plenty of love which they really like is the way to go. But don't give in to them otherwise they will rule you!
 

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