Burglary and police removing my guns

[VSS]

I've dealt with many more burglars than most.

Fair enough.
My experience is very limited.
But on the few occasions that I or members of my family have had anything to do burglars it's been very clear that they'd been observing the household comings and goings for a while, and knew exactly when to make their move.

 

[AlexD]

Hi all,

I was burgled on November, after this burglary the police insisted that I remove my shotguns from my house to a friends for a few months. The burglars came back two days ago while myself and my pregnant wife were asleep upstairs. Two masked men tried to get in the front door with the stolen keys from last time. They were not successful in gaining entry and I did not see their attempt until I checked the ring doorbell the next morning. I have just had a call from my firearms officer telling me that I need to move my guns out of the house until the end of April, otherwise they will take my guns off me and revoke my license. I have been burgled and now the police want my guns ! Where do I stand on this and can they legally take my guns off me?

My house attracts frequent break-in attempts (it is isolated, lots of places to hide in woodland or stonework around, with two druggy villages known for violence each about a mile away).

The police are aware I have on average 5 break in attempts a year. This is so many that I cannot get home insurance. The police are quite happy with my security arrangements, so I am permitted a pile of toys without any problem. You may wish to upgrade your security to sleep sound at night, as well as get your guns back.

In 25 years, only one person made it in (he took out the entire window frame on a basement window, within 20 mins of us leaving the house), but could not make it further than the room he got into, and stole around £3k worth of photographic kit and laptop. Managed to dissuade several others I found trying to get in from returning, and they put the word out through the local pubs to leave one alone. Most of the other attempts we see on the camera or see on the damage done to a door or window frame before they give up.

My arrangements are not difficult to do, a bit unusual, and not expensive. A lot depends on the house: our walls are a yard thick - if you have a timber frame house, just move. I changed all the glass in the windows in the entire house to bullet proof glass 25 years ago, partly because the planners would not allow double glazing, partly for anti-burglary and party because the game drives come close to the house and I don't want the risk of shot gun pellets through the windows: this is not a very expensive thing to do - the cost of a decent gun.

I put the gun cabinets into a gun room that is not apparent to someone walking past it. Add a couple of grills to basement windows made from sections of aluminium tube over 19mm steel bar (so angle grinders do not cut the bars). Added steel plate to the rear of some doors then veneered over the steel so the door looks normal except on the edge and the 5 point locking systems on the edge. Alarm system and video tops it up. Alas, CS spray not allowed but did do a glycol smoke generator which was a nice trick, but alas nobody so far has set it off other than in test, when the fire brigade turned up without being called. I fancy a sound defence weapon, but am advised it is illegal to cause such suffering to criminals while they are at work. All told, I spent about £4k on security, though a lot was DIY.

Main risk to my FAC is confronting these chaps, as going into someone too hard demonstrates lack of control, but go too easy and they think one is disturbed by them. I am not a malevolent person, but when there are more than one, it important to keep self control and not go OTT. By the way, I would never dream of even showing someone a firearm who is breaking in, let alone using one, so the dissuasion methods are quite traditional. Think of it as a sport.

Got a pair on e-motorbikes dressed fully in black last week trying to get in, and was in hot pursuit. Idiots even did their own burglary confession on their own phones. Police were involved in that one, but unless there is direct contact with more than one, I don't normally call them. A couple of times I have had the person doing the break-in or assault go to the police after having been dealt with, so whatever you do, ensure it is entirely reasonable. Idiots are humans too.

 

[Tim.243]

My house attracts frequent break-in attempts (it is isolated, lots of places to hide in woodland or stonework around, with two druggy villages known for violence each about a mile away).

The police are aware I have on average 5 break in attempts a year. This is so many that I cannot get home insurance. The police are quite happy with my security arrangements, so I am permitted a pile of toys without any problem. You may wish to upgrade your security to sleep sound at night, as well as get your guns back.

In 25 years, only one person made it in (he took out the entire window frame on a basement window, within 20 mins of us leaving the house), but could not make it further than the room he got into, and stole around £3k worth of photographic kit and laptop. Managed to dissuade several others I found trying to get in from returning, and they put the word out through the local pubs to leave one alone. Most of the other attempts we see on the camera or see on the damage done to a door or window frame before they give up.

My arrangements are not difficult to do, a bit unusual, and not expensive. A lot depends on the house: our walls are a yard thick - if you have a timber frame house, just move. I changed all the glass in the windows in the entire house to bullet proof glass 25 years ago, partly because the planners would not allow double glazing, partly for anti-burglary and party because the game drives come close to the house and I don't want shot gun pellets through the windows: this is not a very expensive thing to do - the cost of a decent gun.

I put the gun cabinets into a gun room that is not apparent to someone walking past it. Add a couple of grills to basement windows made from sections of aluminium tube over 19mm steel bar (so angle grinders do not cut the bars). Added steel plate to the rear of some doors then veneered over the steel or door looks normal except on the edge. Alarm system and video tops it up. Alas, CS spray not allowed but did do a glycol smoke generator was a nice trick, but alas nobody so far has set it off other than in test, when the fire brigade turned up without being called. I fancy a sound defence weapon, but am advised it is illegal to cause such suffering to criminals while they are at work.

Main risk to my FAC is confronting these chaps, as going into someone too hard demonstrates lack of control, but go too easy and they think one is disturbed by them. I am not a malevolent person, but when there are more than one, it important to keep self control and not go OTT. By the way, I would never dream of even showing someone a firearm who is breaking in, let alone using one, so the dissuasion methods are quite traditional.

Got a pair on e-motorbikes dressed fully in black last week trying to get in, and was in hot pursuit. Idiots even did their own burglary confession on their own phones. Police were involved in that one, but unless there is direct contact with more than one, I don't normally call them. A couple of times I have had the person doing the break-in or assault go to the police after having been dealt with, so whatever you do, ensure it is entirely reasonable. Idiots are humans too.

Sounds like a UK version of the Omega Man Alex!!

 

[20-250]

Fair enough.
My experience is very limited.
But on the few occasions that I or members of my family have had anything to do burglars it's been very clear that they'd been observing the household comings and goings for a while, and knew exactly when to make their move.

It often does appear that way. But it's very rarely true.

 

[FoxAndDeer]

My house attracts frequent break-in attempts (it is isolated, lots of places to hide in woodland or stonework around, with two druggy villages known for violence each about a mile away).

The police are aware I have on average 5 break in attempts a year. This is so many that I cannot get home insurance. The police are quite happy with my security arrangements, so I am permitted a pile of toys without any problem. You may wish to upgrade your security to sleep sound at night, as well as get your guns back.

In 25 years, only one person made it in (he took out the entire window frame on a basement window, within 20 mins of us leaving the house), but could not make it further than the room he got into, and stole around £3k worth of photographic kit and laptop. Managed to dissuade several others I found trying to get in from returning, and they put the word out through the local pubs to leave one alone. Most of the other attempts we see on the camera or see on the damage done to a door or window frame before they give up.

My arrangements are not difficult to do, a bit unusual, and not expensive. A lot depends on the house: our walls are a yard thick - if you have a timber frame house, just move. I changed all the glass in the windows in the entire house to bullet proof glass 25 years ago, partly because the planners would not allow double glazing, partly for anti-burglary and party because the game drives come close to the house and I don't want shot gun pellets through the windows: this is not a very expensive thing to do - the cost of a decent gun.

I put the gun cabinets into a gun room that is not apparent to someone walking past it. Add a couple of grills to basement windows made from sections of aluminium tube over 19mm steel bar (so angle grinders do not cut the bars). Added steel plate to the rear of some doors then veneered over the steel or door looks normal except on the edge. Alarm system and video tops it up. Alas, CS spray not allowed but did do a glycol smoke generator was a nice trick, but alas nobody so far has set it off other than in test, when the fire brigade turned up without being called. I fancy a sound defence weapon, but am advised it is illegal to cause such suffering to criminals while they are at work. All told, I spent about £4k on security, though a lot was DIY.

Main risk to my FAC is confronting these chaps, as going into someone too hard demonstrates lack of control, but go too easy and they think one is disturbed by them. I am not a malevolent person, but when there are more than one, it important to keep self control and not go OTT. By the way, I would never dream of even showing someone a firearm who is breaking in, let alone using one, so the dissuasion methods are quite traditional. Think of it as a sport.

Got a pair on e-motorbikes dressed fully in black last week trying to get in, and was in hot pursuit. Idiots even did their own burglary confession on their own phones. Police were involved in that one, but unless there is direct contact with more than one, I don't normally call them. A couple of times I have had the person doing the break-in or assault go to the police after having been dealt with, so whatever you do, ensure it is entirely reasonable. Idiots are humans too.

Great post, thanks for sharing. Great suggestions for improving domestic security too your comments on confronting them and exhibiting the right level of control is spot on too.

 

[AlexD]

Sounds like a UK version of the Omega Man Alex!!

It is usually more of a comedy. I should start a Youtube channel, idiots at work, or Dumbest Robbers Compilation.

 

[MarinePMI]

My house attracts frequent break-in attempts (it is isolated, lots of places to hide in woodland or stonework around, with two druggy villages known for violence each about a mile away).

The police are aware I have on average 5 break in attempts a year. This is so many that I cannot get home insurance. The police are quite happy with my security arrangements, so I am permitted a pile of toys without any problem. You may wish to upgrade your security to sleep sound at night, as well as get your guns back.

In 25 years, only one person made it in (he took out the entire window frame on a basement window, within 20 mins of us leaving the house), but could not make it further than the room he got into, and stole around £3k worth of photographic kit and laptop. Managed to dissuade several others I found trying to get in from returning, and they put the word out through the local pubs to leave one alone. Most of the other attempts we see on the camera or see on the damage done to a door or window frame before they give up.

My arrangements are not difficult to do, a bit unusual, and not expensive. A lot depends on the house: our walls are a yard thick - if you have a timber frame house, just move. I changed all the glass in the windows in the entire house to bullet proof glass 25 years ago, partly because the planners would not allow double glazing, partly for anti-burglary and party because the game drives come close to the house and I don't want the risk of shot gun pellets through the windows: this is not a very expensive thing to do - the cost of a decent gun.

I put the gun cabinets into a gun room that is not apparent to someone walking past it. Add a couple of grills to basement windows made from sections of aluminium tube over 19mm steel bar (so angle grinders do not cut the bars). Added steel plate to the rear of some doors then veneered over the steel so the door looks normal except on the edge and the 5 point locking systems on the edge. Alarm system and video tops it up. Alas, CS spray not allowed but did do a glycol smoke generator which was a nice trick, but alas nobody so far has set it off other than in test, when the fire brigade turned up without being called. I fancy a sound defence weapon, but am advised it is illegal to cause such suffering to criminals while they are at work. All told, I spent about £4k on security, though a lot was DIY.

Main risk to my FAC is confronting these chaps, as going into someone too hard demonstrates lack of control, but go too easy and they think one is disturbed by them. I am not a malevolent person, but when there are more than one, it important to keep self control and not go OTT. By the way, I would never dream of even showing someone a firearm who is breaking in, let alone using one, so the dissuasion methods are quite traditional. Think of it as a sport.

Got a pair on e-motorbikes dressed fully in black last week trying to get in, and was in hot pursuit. Idiots even did their own burglary confession on their own phones. Police were involved in that one, but unless there is direct contact with more than one, I don't normally call them. A couple of times I have had the person doing the break-in or assault go to the police after having been dealt with, so whatever you do, ensure it is entirely reasonable. Idiots are humans too.

Have you installed a driveway alarm/camera? A lot of people here in rural areas use them. They provide an alert when someone comes on the property (since the driveway entrance may be several hundred yards from the house), as well as capture pictures of vehicles. They're not very expensive, and can be very covert. Many have a range of 500yds without an additional repeater.

As to your gun room, have you looked into a Murphy Door? It's a nice way to hide a doorway, and looks like a normal bookcase.

Going through a lot of this currently, as we design our retirement home, so it's interesting to hear your set up. The main difference here is that our laws tend to favor the land owner over the "visitor", so there are other measures that can/will be taken.

 

[AlexD]

Have you installed a driveway alarm/camera? A lot of people here in rural areas use them. They provide an alert when someone comes on the property (since the driveway entrance may be several hundred yards from the house), as well as capture pictures of vehicles. They're not very expensive, and can be very covert. Many have a range of 500yds without an additional repeater.

As to your gun room, have you looked into a Murphy Door? It's a nice way to hide a doorway, and looks like a normal bookcase.

Going through a lot of this currently, as we design our retirement home, so it's interesting to hear your set up. The main difference here is that our laws tend to favor the land owner over the "visitor", so there are other measures that can/will be taken.

US has some advantages over Scotland in terms of security, and some disadvantages.

On advantages of the US, yes we have driveway cameras but the Freedom to Roam Act (real name, Land Reform Scotland Act 2003), when living in a nice place, along with lots of over-entitled people from a nearby city that think they can wander into your garden at will, creates too many false alarms. In the US you have trespass laws - great.

Other than that, a driveway camera or trail cam with alerts is a great thing to put in, and they can run off a SIM card, which with ID Mobile in the UK, is fast & cheap, covers any distance.

A disadvantage of US houses is that they are made from paper (thin wood, yet to become paper), so don't know why thugs bother with the windows, other than they are even weaker than the walls. I admit, it is a disadvantage easily overcome with a friendly "Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again" sign.

Amazed more people don't whip out their battery croc saw, angle grinder or chain saw in the US. UK houses are brick or stone, unless bought from a "modern" house builder, so doors and windows are the only real way in. The bullet proof glass I suggested for the OP is cheap: around £50 a square yard bought direct from Saint Gobain in Glasgow - an amazing factory to tour. Buy it as thick as your double glazing panels, and add grills to ground floor windows of 19mm diameter hard steel, with sections of Ali tube over it - they are also cheap and stops anyone who has taken out the window frame with the aforementioned tools. Add window locks so they cannot open. The windows are then impenetrable.

The biggest advantage in the US, is have a break in, deal with it sensibly, and the police are not going to think of taking away your hunting guns. Unlike the OP's FEO .

 

[Bo Diddley]

I need a brick wall.....

And then declare yourself an Independent State.

All this nonsense could be solved in a jiffy if we built a Super Prison like the one in El Salvador and incarcerated the non-conforming scumbags to a lifetime of rice&beans with a hard boiled egg... I like this solution more and more as the weeks roll along....

 

[TringSaint]

If we going away for a couple of weeks, leaving the house empty then I put my guns into storage at the rfd.
I don’t take the risk - it’s not worth it.

 

[Smellydog]

And then declare yourself an Independent State.

All this nonsense could be solved in a jiffy if we built a Super Prison like the one in El Salvador and incarcerated the non-conforming scumbags to a lifetime of rice&beans with a hard boiled egg... I like this solution more and more as the weeks roll along....

Yes agreed but I initially meant to bludgeon my one head on one!

 

[Bo Diddley]

Yes agreed but I initially meant to bludgeon my one head on one!

Ah! got ya...

 

[AlexD]

BTW, here is some therapy for anyone worried by burglars:
Best watched with beer and popcorn, fine wine and chocolates, or a Laphroaig. Try not to spill it.

 

[MarinePMI]

The biggest advantage in the US, is have a break in, deal with it sensibly, and the police are not going to think of taking away your hunting guns. Unlike the OP's FEO .

That assumes the police even get called. Some places they just fire up the backhoe, dig a deep hole, and dispose of the problem.

There are still parts of the US where people leave town, and are just never seen again. Some would say that is brutal or lawless, but others would say that people are just dealing with the "problems" and at a lot less cost and fanfare. <shrug>

As Heinlein said "A well armed society, is a polite society."

 

[Rake Aboot]

What’s crazy is that they’d never break into your house if they thought one of those guns was loaded at your bedside.

 

[Sorley121]

Such an awful position to be in! But I would agree with seeing if you can get friends to take them as you'll have to pay some kind of storage fee at an RFD, which could amount to a larger figure than expected if the police become difficult about allowing you to get them back home. Plus a friends will be easier to come and go using your guns as you wish.
Hope this gets setting mate!

 

[Morkai]

Have you installed a driveway alarm/camera? A lot of people here in rural areas use them. They provide an alert when someone comes on the property (since the driveway entrance may be several hundred yards from the house), as well as capture pictures of vehicles. They're not very expensive, and can be very covert. Many have a range of 500yds without an additional repeater.

As to your gun room, have you looked into a Murphy Door? It's a nice way to hide a doorway, and looks like a normal bookcase.

Going through a lot of this currently, as we design our retirement home, so it's interesting to hear your set up. The main difference here is that our laws tend to favor the land owner over the "visitor", so there are other measures that can/will be taken.

Not only does it alert you from 500yrds away, it lets you know how much adjustment you need on your scope

 

[AlexD]

Not only does it alert you from 500yrds away, it lets you know how much adjustment you need on your scope

I realise your comment is in jest, and refers to the US, but it is the fear of just that which causes FEOs to take away guns if there have been burglaries. They don't want another Tony Martin situation. For the OP, the FEO's worry seems to be simply the shotguns falling into the wrong hands, which is handled by putting in some better security. Burglars targeting weapons are usually drug gangs, who are probably the most dangerous, so security is needed to sleep comfortably in any case.

The biggest problem is burglars are misunderstood. Burglars are not the type that go to the gym. They are not biker mobs.

Yobs, violent youths and burglars are nothing to fear, so long as you don't do something dumb such as allow a mob of them to surround you. They are rarely the brightest people in society. Often they need money for drugs, and apart from the beast I tackled six years ago who was on meth, are usually weak - they are too lazy to gym. Sometimes just ultra arrogant. Never met one who has been taught how to fight. They think a fat old guy with grey hair is an easy target, and are terrified when they discover their error.

On drug gangs, I mentioned there are two villages/small towns each a mile away, overrun with drugs, and once in a while someone thinks my drive is a good place to do deals. Nip it in the bud before it gets worse. Once tapped on a chaps car window, he winds it down thinking I want their merch, for me to quickly flashgun their face, snatch their key from ignition and lob it far away. They usually have a lot of mouth, to which the response is "bring it on", as one walks fast to one's own car, to push theirs into the middle of the road. Of course, if they bring out tools, one has to up the ante a bit, but remember, these are dumb idiots in a mess so don't do anything to harm, just make clear you don't support their business model. If they come back, photograph them from behind your windows and call 999, recording their mouth as unless they actually get in the police can't prosecute otherwise. It is their mouth that incriminates them, with their threats and statements of intent.

If you are not confident of handling it without escalation to serious violence, just get behind your windows, dial 999 and record it.

 

[dunwater]

You can argue the moral rights and wrongs all night, and I'll agree wholeheartedly that the system is completely skewed. But until we have a government with the balls to properly deal with criminals, and a justice system with the ability to properly protect the rights of the law abiding we're effectively stuffed.

I’m not making or trying to make a moral argument, my point is purely factual.
The OP suffered a burglary and a later attempted burglary.
In both cases his security measures successfully prevented the firearms from being stolen, ie, they worked as intended.

Why and by what logic is it reasonable to force him to remove his firearms from his own storage with its proven to be effective security measures and place them elsewhere under threat of revocation of his certificates for failure to comply?

 

[Greenmist]

Maybe its time for a discussion on firearms being allowed again for home defence, especially for firearms certificate holders? That would make the bad guys think twice about who they were robbing.

Seems the current thinking is remove the liberties and freedoms from the potential victim to remove the threat. That is wrong.

More chance of badger baiting being made legal