Buying From USA

[gitano]

Unfortunately, with respect to the firearm, you weren't speaking to someone that didn't know what they were talking about. (By the way, your FAC, etc. is legally meaningless here.) A store like Cabela's or Bass Pro can't even sell to an American citizen that isn't a resident of that state in which th e store is located without jumping through some 'special' hoops. If you really want the rifle (excellent choice in chambering and manufacturer in my opinion ), you will need to find someone that is willing to 'bend' the law.

When a firearm is purchased in the US, a "Form 4473".

The critical question on that form for whomever might make that purchase for you is 11a:

"Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on the form?"

If they honestly answer the question "No", that's the end of the sale. Period. No exceptions.

Specifically, the BATFE wants to RIGHTLY prohibit "straw" purchases - a purchase by someone that can "pass" the background check FOR someone that can't.

If you are here as the guest of an American citizen, you might discuss with them the possibility of them buying the firearm for themselves, keeping it for a "while" and running a few rounds through it, calling it "used", and selling it to you for what they paid for it. Technically, as long as they didn't "intend" to circumvent the intent of the law - preventing "straw" purchases - they would not be breaking the law. In other words, if they genuinely bought the rifle for themselves - say prior to your arrival in the States - and "used" it for "a while" before you arrived, decided that they didn't like it, and ultimately sold it to you while you were here, they'd be "clean". Doing something like that would be something you'd need to discuss with your "sponsor".

With respect to everything else yo might want, bullets AND ammunition for example, there are NO restrictions whatsoever other than being over 18 years of age for rifle ammo and 21 years of age for handgun ammo. NONE. Don't let anyone tell you differently. NONE. YOUR side of The Pond when you arrive home is an entirely different matter about which I know almost nothing.

Best of luck,
Paul

 

[TASR12]

Thanks for that Paul. I was pretty confident with the components side of life but that info about the rifle is very useful, although it will probably have to wait for now. Cheers,
Tom.

 

[Eyefor]

With respect to everything else yo might want, bullets AND ammunition for example, there are NO restrictions whatsoever other than being over 18 years of age for rifle ammo and 21 years of age for handgun ammo. NONE. Don't let anyone tell you differently. NONE. YOUR side of The Pond when you arrive home is an entirely different matter about which I know almost nothing.

Best of luck,
Paul

Paul,

Would appreciate your comments on the information here please

AirgunBBS.com

For years have been bringing ammo / bullets / cases etc (and other stuff) from the US for personal use with suitcases opened on many occasions by TSA - but (apparently) these items require an export licence?

I have always put a copy of my UK FAC and the (generally Midway) invoices at the top of the case

Never had a problem either leaving the US or arriving in UK (have to show FAC to customs with full ammo)- but I'm worried now!

Thanks.

Iain

 

[gitano]

Eyefor - Let me make sure everyone understands that relying on "some guy on the internet" - me, as one example - for legal advice, has its risks. Sadly, in the world today, too often you can't even get knowledgeable or honest answers from the entities that make up or enforce the rules.

I can't read your link without becoming a member of AirgunBBS and I really don't want to become a member of yet another internet bulletin board. If you don't mind, I would appreciate it if you would cut and paste the relevant info at that site that you would like me to comment on.

GUESSING what it says about "import licenses", let me make the following clear, (and you can check this with a lawyer or the US Dept of Commerce if you want corroboration):

Just because Cabelas, Bass Pro Shops, MidwayUSA, etc. can't SELL a specific item to you IN GREAT BRITAIN without an import/export license, DOES NOT MEAN that a friend can't buy you that item and send it to you. Our import/export laws are designed to regulate COMMERCE. If a friend wants to buy someone some "thing" and send it as a gift OR even get reimbursed for it, IT IS NOT AGAINST THE LAW. If on the other hand, if your friend has a business license to sell the item, and your friend is MAKING A PROFIT off of selling it to you, then they MUST HAVE AN IMPORT/EXPORT LICENSE just like Cabelas or any other retailer because they are engaging in international COMMERCE.

If you buy something from Cabelas while visiting here, and take it back home, you WILL have to: 1) Pay "duties" on it, AND, 2) if it is a "restricted" item - some "night" 'scopes for example - you will NOT be allowed to remove it from this country. In other words, it will be confiscated.

There is nothing "wrong" with putting your FAC in your luggage, but it "cuts NO ice" here legally. None. It probably REALLY helps at your end though.

Finally, if it looked like "your friend" was setting up an "enterprise" with the sole purpose of circumventing the import/export laws, even if there wasn't profit involved, he could find himself in trouble with the US Dept. of Commerce. Sending friends gifts now and then is NOT AGAINST THE LAW unless it is a "restricted" item (that means NO EXPORT WHATSOEVER - high tech items like newest generation night vision optics).

"Profit", "Business" and "Intent" are what matters.

Regards,
Paul

 

[Eyefor]

Thanks for the reply Paul.

Please see below -

Quote 1

Quote

In answer to some of the points, in no particular order:

It does not matter which State you are in or fly from/to - these are Ferderal Laws.

Re purchasing live ammuniton as an alien see here: http://www.nafr.org/PDF/p5300_18.pdf
And here is the form to fill in to be 'officially' in the US for hunting i.e in possession of a ammuntition: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5330-3d.pdf

Re. controlled items i.e. needing export permit

This details the definition of minor components under $100 (but excludes barrels etc. regardless of cost: http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/licensin...s_Firearms.pdf
Condensed ITAR : http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulati...r/Part_123.pdf if you read you will see that only US citzens are exempt for limited quantities.

But if you do not beleive me call the State Department (+1 202 663 7282) they will tell you that brass and bullets require a permit, if you actually export something officially then you will find that bullets and brass need to go on the license (but only count as one line item) and finally I was detained and fined under US law for trying to take out some brass and bullets, neither of which were in any way 'military' and in the US they do not fine you for the fun of it!

Basically you are 'getting away with it'. If you ever get caught plead ignorance and hand it all over, the fine plus the arbitary storage charge Customs levy while your case is being processed is far greater than the value of your purchase. You also now stand a chance of being denied entrance to the US on future visits.

Unquote

Having stated that this contradicted what I was doing on a regular basis the guy posted this

Quote 2


As promised I asked the DDTC regarding the requirement of export licenses for various items related to firearms, here;s my question to them:

Dear Sirs.

Could you clarify some things related to the permanent export of firearms associated components to the UK for personal use, not for re-export.

A recurring question here in the UK is exactly what requires an export permit before being shipped to the UK from the US.

Can you confirm what of the items listed below actually require an export permit please:


Ammunition component, brass cartridge cases only, new
Ammunition component, brass cartridge cases, fired/used
Ammunition component, bullet only
Rifle stock, non collapsible, inletted, value greater than $100
Rifle stock, non collapsible un-inletted, value greater than $100
Trigger mechanism, value greater than $100
Magazine for sporting firearm
Magazine for a military firearm i.e. AR-15 or civilian M16 copies etc.
Rifle action regardless of cost
Rifle barrel regardless of cost
Any component value less than $100

What restrictions on telescopic sights need to be applied or considered relating to export?[/SIZE][/I]

To which I received the following reply:

All items on your list require an export license issued by DDTC to a registered exporter of defense articles. The only exception is for minor parts and components for US-origin firearms previously licensed for export if the value is less than $100.00 wholesale. However, only an exporter registered with DDTC can use the license exemption.

DDTC licenses the export of rifles, handguns and combat shotguns and the ammunition for them. Sporting shotguns and their components and ammunition are under the export jurisdiction of the US Department of Commerce.

DDTC controls the export of sighting devices made to military specifications, and requires a license for their export. Sighting devises made for sporting use are under the export jurisdiction of the US Department of Commerce.


Stephen M. Geis
DDTC Response Team
Contractor, XL

NOTE: Information in this message generally discusses controls and information contained in the Arms Export Control Act and International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), both of which are authoritative on this matter. The Response Team fields basic process and status questions, and assists exporters in identifying how to get answers to more complex questions handled by the Directorate of Defense Trade Control's licensing and compliance offices. The Response Team's services are not a substitute or replacement for the advisory opinion, general correspondence, and commodity jurisdiction processes delineated in the ITAR, which should be used to obtain authoritative guidance on export control issues, and do not in any way relieve exporters from their responsibilities to comply fully with the law and regulations.

This email is UNCLASSIFIED.

FYI I changed thefonts to try to show where the one thing started and the other finished. I can fwd the original to anyone if they pm thier address.

I'm waiting on the reply from ATF regarding the purchase or possession of ammuntiton by a non imigrant alien.

Unquote 2

Having again asked if this covered items for personal sporting (i.e. non commercial and non military) they guy contacted the US as below -

Quote 3

My question:

Good morning Stephen,

Thank you for the detailed response.

Just one more thing, your statement below applies to all firearms, firearms parts and ammunition components as I've listed, not just those directly linked to military

For example the export of sporting ammunition components for a sporting rifle would require an export license from the DDTC?

Thanks in advance

his reply:

Yes, it applies to all firearms and ammunition, sporting as well as military, with the exception of sporting shotguns, muzzle loading black powder firearms, and pellet guns.

Stephen M. Geis
DDTC Response Team
Contractor, XL

Unquote 3

So "sporting shotgun" OK, rifle ammo / bits not OK?

It is the ..... "was detained and fined under US law for trying to take out some brass and bullets, neither of which were in any way 'military' and in the US they do not fine you for the fun of it!

Basically you are 'getting away with it'. If you ever get caught plead ignorance and hand it all over, the fine plus the arbitary storage charge Customs levy while your case is being processed is far greater than the value of your purchase. You also now stand a chance of being denied entrance to the US on future visits"

...that I find very worrying - so on past three trips this year I have returned empty handed!

Regards.

Iain

 

[Hugh Davis]

Morning Everyone
I have read this string with interest.
However has anyone considered the UK position?
I imported an HS Precision base plate and magazine for a Remington 700 from Brownells.
I spoke to the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) who advised that there is a special arrangement for private individuals who wish to import small parts for firearms for their personal use. They sent me a letter advising that the details of the provision with two days!
I then faxed a copy to Brownells who then sent the base plate - No hassle
My advice is to contact the local office of the DTI and explain precisely what is required and then send a copy of the letter to the vendors.
Hugh Davis

 

[gitano]

Hugh Davis' comments are most noteworthy.

The comments - in writing - by Stephen M. Geis would certainly "worry" me if I were in your shoes. However, one has to be VERY careful how one words questions to the government. Especially questions of a legal nature. I will personally call the Department of Commerce and make sure I am clearly understood. I continue to assert my original position, HOWEVER, "things" have "changed" with regard to "gun law" since President Barack Hussein Obama was elected. It may be that while the law remains the same, the enforcement has changed considerably.

I'll be back...

Regards,
Paul

 

[Eyefor]

Hugh Davis' comments are most noteworthy.

The comments - in writing - by Stephen M. Geis would certainly "worry" me if I were in your shoes. However, one has to be VERY careful how one words questions to the government. Especially questions of a legal nature. I will personally call the Department of Commerce and make sure I am clearly understood. I continue to assert my original position, HOWEVER, "things" have "changed" with regard to "gun law" since President Barack Hussein Obama was elected. It may be that while the law remains the same, the enforcement has changed considerably.

I'll be back...

Regards,
Paul

PM sent

 

[gitano]

I have made a few calls (the above number is off by one by the way - should be 1282, not 7282) and haven't gotten any satisfaction yet. I'll keep after it until I find someone that can give me an answer that is independent of COMMERCE. That is a critical detail, and when you use the terms "import" and "export", you START the thinking in terms of "business".

Sadly, I'm not expecting much satisfaction. In the end, it will be the attitude and BELIEFS of the person that is looking through your luggage that will determine what happens, REGARDLESS OF THE LAW.

Instead of "buyer beware" it is "traveler beware". It's just the reality of international travel.

Regards,
Paul

 

[gitano]

This seems fairly unambiguous:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-18.pdf

HOWEVER... ammunition COMPONENTS are NOT "ammunition" in the US. THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT THIS! You CAN buy bullets, cases, powder (can't take on an airplane) and primers (also can't take on airplane).

No gun buying unless you are here for at least 90 days OR establish residency in a state, or are a "diplomat".


Paul

 

[Eyefor]

Hi Paul,

Nice talking to you the other day & many thanks for your efforts on this - a copy of the .pdf will be with me later this month - but do you know where we might get written info that components are not classed as "ammunition" please?

Don't fancy looking for a food parcel service to Guantanamo Bay.....

ATB

Iain

 

[gitano]

Well, here's one I would have lost A LOT of money on, and an excellent example of why not to rely on "some guy on the internet". Here's the LAW

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc18.wais&start=1449952&SIZE=48951&TYPE=TEXT

Look specifically at paragraph (17).

(17)(A) The term ``ammunition'' means ammunition or cartridge cases,
primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

Here is the BATFE's page on the matter: ATF Online - Firearms - Guides - Importation Verification of Firearms, Ammunition and Implements of War - Gun Control Act Definitions - Ammunition

Doesn't get much clearer than that.

Thank you for making me verify this.

Regards,
Paul

PS
The first URL - the actual US federal law link - gives an error when copied-and-pasted in an address box, however it is syntactically correct. You can get to the same place by clicking on the link at the top of the page on the BATFE link.

Paul

 

[Eyefor]

Many thanks for all your efforts Paul. Much appreciated.

May I suggest that someone from the powers-that-be put this (or a link to this) up as a sticky - otherwise someone someday is gonna be in difficulties with the US authorities?

 

[gitano]

There's still something that 'bothers' me about this. Recently, my company has be looking into getting a few different firearms licenses - manufacture ammunition, design moderators, design "firearms", and we have had some fairly high-powered attorneys looking at the 'details'. There is a very clear distinction between what a "private party" can manufacture and purchase without a license (almost everything), and what a business can do without a license (basically nothing). I THINK the difference in the context of THIS thread is the "non-immigrant alien" status. But here's the problem I'm having... I don't understand the reasoning behind the restrictions on "ammunition" (the above definition) for the non-immigrant alien. Without going down the "there's no good reason for any gun law" path, I simply can't figure out what 'the powers that be' are trying to prevent/accomplish. All the regulation does is limit commerce. It does not even ostensibly prevent 'crime' or 'danger'. It is akin to limiting the purchase of gun stocks, or grips for a pistol, or a flashlight that could be attached to a firearm.

The ONLY thing I can think of is that prosecutors like to be able to charge defendants with as many charges as they possibly can no matter how silly, absurd and trivial. That way they can 1) impress juries with the "magnitude" of the crime, and 2) "negotiate" away the petty and trivial ones in pretrial negotiations. It is also VERY COMMON in the US that we make laws that we have NO intention of enforcing UNLESS WE WANT TO. Our recreational drug laws are a good example. In most of the US states, there is NO effort or resources spent on enforcing recreational marijuana use UNLESS.... you **** off the local cops. THEN, the they will make you look like the local connection for the Mediene drug cartel. Again, for the purposes of "negotiating" purposes. With obscure and "normally" unenforced "gun laws" it gives local (and federal) law enforcement a vehicle to screw with someone they've decided they don't like. This is precisely what happened at both Ruby Ridge and Waco. A local "boy" got in a ****ing match with a petty local sheriff, "firearms violations" and "sexual abuse" charges were trumped up and in the end all the "bad guys" died, and all the police walk away scott free. (At Ruby Ridge, an FBI sharpshooter, from over 100 yd away - shot and killed a woman holding a baby. His "defense" was that "she represented a threat to to the federal helicopters flying overhead." Another US Marshall was given an award for valor. His 'valor'? He shot killed an unarmed 14-year-old boy in the back as the boy was running away from the ambush.)

My point is - while "the law is the law", I strongly suspect that there is 'more to this story' regarding "ammunition", and I intend to continue to look into it. It is quite common in US law that "regulations" created by one branch are a clear contradiction of those written by another. If I find anything of interest, I'll post it here.

Regards,
Paul

 

[phaedra]

Found this discussion while browsing and though I may be able to help

The ATF page does not apply to current regulation with regard to personal buying/exportation of reloading components etc. it's only a description of what the ATF regard as ammunition.

The buying and bringing back into the UK of reloading components from the USA (with the exception of powder and primers) does not require an export license, I have veryified this with the TSA directly, the TSA are the people responsible for the enforcing of the regulations not the ATF. Since my contact with the TSA I have made 5 trips to the USA and have brought back about 2000 cases and bullets, 3 rifke scopes, 3 reloading presses and kits and a multitude of other shooting related components and accessories. The only thing I have had any problem with was Birchwood Casey brass case cleaner as it contains a small amount of sulphuric acid and was removed from my luggage as a Hazmat requirement, all the other reloading items in both cases were allowed without problem.

Here's a copy of the email I got from the Acting Deputy General Manager of the OSO.

Thank you for electronic message of October 26, 2010, to the
Transportation Security Administration Contact Center asking about the
transport of a reloading press, a powder scale, and other items aboard
commercial aircraft.

The reloading press, dies, powder scale, empty un-primed brass
cartridge cases, bullet heads, rifle scopes, and bullets are permitted
in checked baggage. We do recommend, however, that you carry the rifle
scopes through the screening checkpoint since these items are permitted
in the aircraft cabin. Doing so would afford the item better protection
against potential damage.

I hope this information is helpful.

Sincerely yours,


Chad Bash
Acting Deputy General Manager for Mission Support
Office of Security Operations

 

[gitano]

Excellent information! It is in direct contradiction to VERBAL "information" I got from the Department of Commerce, but I agree that TSA is "The Man" when it comes to "things" at border checks. (However, they are NOT the enforcement for the BATFE regulations. The BATFE has its own enforcement paramilitary force. They, (along with the FBI and the local yokels), were the ones present and shooting at Ruby Ridge and Waco.) If one were to violate a BATFE regulation that pertained to import/export AND the TSA CHOSE to enforce that regulation, both the TSA and the BATFE would bring separate charges.

Again, thanks for the info. This makes a lot more sense and something in writing 'trumps' verbal BS every day. I suspect Bash's comments would infuriate the jackass that I spoke with at the Department of Commerce.

Regards,
Paul

 

[Eyefor]

Excellent information! It is in direct contradiction to VERBAL "information" I got from the Department of Commerce, but I agree that TSA is "The Man" when it comes to "things" at border checks. (However, they are NOT the enforcement for the BATFE regulations. The BATFE has its own enforcement paramilitary force. They, (along with the FBI and the local yokels), were the ones present and shooting at Ruby Ridge and Waco.) If one were to violate a BATFE regulation that pertained to import/export AND the TSA CHOSE to enforce that regulation, both the TSA and the BATFE would bring separate charges.


Again, thanks for the info. This makes a lot more sense and something in writing 'trumps' verbal BS every day. I suspect Bash's comments would infuriate the jackass that I spoke with at the Department of Commerce.

Regards,
Paul

Hi Paul,

I've only just seen this and I will post an open reply rather than PM so that other US travellers might benefit.

Since our exchange I have not been travelling to the US as frequently as I was so, on two trips earlier in 2011, I travelled back empty handed because I had no wish to upset the Dept of Commerce guys.

Last trip (July / August) I again travelled without bullets ("heads" for clarification, not full ammo) but did have time to speak to TSA who said that they are at the sharp end and what some guy in a suit in Washington cares to call the law is up to them.

TSA reconfirmed that pre-booked (with the airline) ammo for personal use (not resale) is ok as are the items clarified by Mr Chad Bash above and "if TSA ain't bothered then Washington can go screw. Enjoy your flight Sir".

I am travelling back again in two weeks and will be returning with bullets (heads, I have no need for full ammo) plus a printed copy of Mr Bash's words.

 

[gitano]

Thanks for keeping us posted on this Eyefor.

Paul

 

[Scots_stalker]

ive a mate in texas sending me a full reloading kit as we speak

 

[Erik Hamburger]

If it is simply the best deal you're after on a chosen product such as for example a scope or binos ten my research shows the base price is approx 2/3 of what you pay in the UK: So a £300 scope in the UK will sell for £200 in the USA. (The words 'rip off Britain' spring to mind...). Add to that the costs of P&P, for a scope typically £30. Add to that the Duty and VAT which adds up to approx 20% which you pay over the total bill (£200+£30), so around £46.
Your saving will be a derisory £24 or 8%.

Now, for those people who like to buy really expensive scopes of £1,000+ or other optical equipment, a possible 8% saving suddenly becomes very interesting...and that figure increases to 10% or so as posting an expensive scope to the UK costs the same as a cheap posting a cheap scope.

Uk retailers would, rightly so, wish to point out that if something goes wrong with your equipment and you have to use the Warrenty and return the goods, things become pretty complicated if you have to return it to your USA internet retailer...as well expensive. (P&P!)

So it is best to try to push the price down with your UK retailer by negotiating hard and confronting them with the USA internet prices - there is often room for a discount, if only you ask.

Now, some USA online retailers will only declare a value of £30 on a £200 product, 'to keep the Duty down' Hmm hmm thereby increasing your perceived financial benefit. If you are so lucky to deal with one of them you may find the Customs men knocking on your door - or it may slip through the net, who knows!