Cast bullet success!

[harrygrey382]

Well I finally made it out to try some groups with my first ever cast bullets. After honing the Lee bullet sizing die out to size them .244 I loaded them on top of Trail Boss. I seated them to the same depth as my jacket bullets - 10 thou off the lands. I gave the bore a real good cleaning with wipeout - no copper left in it.


To my suprise and satisfaction the first group of 10gr was 0.6" at 50 yards! The next couple weren't so good but the last, at 12gr gave 1.5" at 100 yards (not shown). I still need to fine tune the loads figure out how to fit the best zero in with my jacket loads but I'm very very pleased with the results.


This load will be for hunting small game to eat, and also to fill the gap of where my 22wmr was. Initial signs exceed expectations. Velocity was I think around 1200 fps. I was hoping for a subsonic load and am thinking I might try less than the first. But even at 1200, with an 87gr bullet it should be pushing out at least 22 magnum energy. And at 14p per round, it's cheaper too.

I through a bolt in my wood lathe and hit it with a grinder, then sanded it to make a tapered rod for bell-mouthing the top of the neck very slightly. The gas check now sits about halfway down when rested there. Seating the bullets has slightly less resistance than the jacketed bullets but feels even for all cartridges.

 

[Harry mac]

I love it when a plan comes together. I've never cast for HV ammo so gas checks are un-mapperd teritory for me. I still do it for my 32-20 rook rifle and 577-450 Martini Henry. I used to cast a lot for my 9mm and 357 Mag handguns.

 

[devilishdave]

sounds good mate, some people would be happy with 1.5inches at 100m with shop baught heads.

Dave

 

[Muir]

Harry,
What lube were you using?? I noticed the lube grooves in your pic were dry.~Muir

 

[harrygrey382]

LLA for the moment until I get some dies for my RCBS lubesizer. I've got RCBS lube waiting too. I thought LLA was only meant to be a thin coating all over? Also I couldn't see any leading after those 12 shots...

 

[Muir]

That's OK. Next time try seating the bullets to nudge into the rifling lands... you'll have better accuracy! ~Muir

ADDENDUM: If you have a stick of the RCBS lube you can simply cut a disk of lube off of the end and hand lube your bullets (rub the bullets across the lube) before sizing. MEssy but effective!

 

[harrygrey382]

That's OK. Next time try seating the bullets to nudge into the rifling lands... you'll have better accuracy! ~Muir

Ah, I didn't quite get it when you said this before. I thought you were saying I could seat them way out in a fired, unsized case so that the lands seat it. But you also mean I could seat them like this in a FL sized case? Should I seat them so they just touch the lands, or way out so the lands actually push the bullet back into the case a bit? Would there not be a danger of the bullet jamming in so if you exract it the bullet stays put and you empty the case all over the action?

Also, can you do this with higher pressure loads - like a 4198 load pushing it as fast as it'll go without leading?

 

[Muir]

I use my heat treated bullets at 42K with the nose just touching the lands. I shot target loads with the bullets a light compression into the lands. I don't know how much pressure you're planning to load to, so I don't know what your results will be, but seating the bullet to the lands...even contacting the lands... is preferable to having it backed off. Yes. If carried to an extreme you could de-bullet a case. Only experimentation will tell you the tale. I would continue with the Trail Boss until you exhaust the accuracy from that bullet and powder, then move on to higher pressure loads. I was glad to see you didn't say "higher velocity"! Truly, velocity carries no weight when compared to pressure as it applies to cast bullet shooting. Minding pressures is the key.~Muir

 

[harrygrey382]

I use my heat treated bullets at 42K with the nose just touching the lands. I shot target loads with the bullets a light compression into the lands. I don't know how much pressure you're planning to load to, so I don't know what your results will be, but seating the bullet to the lands...even contacting the lands... is preferable to having it backed off. Yes. If carried to an extreme you could de-bullet a case. Only experimentation will tell you the tale. I would continue with the Trail Boss until you exhaust the accuracy from that bullet and powder, then move on to higher pressure loads. I was glad to see you didn't say "higher velocity"! Truly, velocity carries no weight when compared to pressure as it applies to cast bullet shooting. Minding pressures is the key.~Muir

wow, 42K. Sometime in the not too distant future I must have a think about heat treating. But for the moment I'm happy to walk before I can run. I'll certainly be seating them out to comfortably touch the lands then.

 

[Muir]

RE: 42K...Yeah. Have some fun before the serious work begins! When you're ready to try it I'll walk you through the process. As I have mentioned, I have killed deer with these bullets in 3o, 303, and 8mm calibers. My current favorite, the Husqvarna 648 8x57, is a sweet shooter with cast" 206 grains at 2350 fps. ~Muir

 

[harrygrey382]

RE: 42K...Yeah. Have some fun before the serious work begins! When you're ready to try it I'll walk you through the process. As I have mentioned, I have killed deer with these bullets in 3o, 303, and 8mm calibers. My current favorite, the Husqvarna 648 8x57, is a sweet shooter with cast" 206 grains at 2350 fps. ~Muir

Yes I'd be very interested thanks. Might as well do away with jacketed bullets if I could load cast to 42K. I'd be especially interested in some higher pressure loads once I get my 30-06. Shouldn't be too long - got the lisence slot just waiting to sell my 22wmr so I can buy the Huskvarna 1640 I've found... 1:12 24" barrel in very good nick - should do well with casts?

 

[enfieldspares]

Ah, I didn't quite get it when you said this before. I thought you were saying I could seat them way out in a fired, unsized case so that the lands seat it. But you also mean I could seat them like this in a FL sized case? Should I seat them so they just touch the lands, or way out so the lands actually push the bullet back into the case a bit?

As an historical aside the BEST ACCURACY in some early breechloader marksmen was obtained by using a wood rod to push the loose bullet into the bore and THEN placing the cartridge case behind!

I would advise not to try it!

Some considered this "cheating" so that even today some rifle clubs have in competition rules the words "fixed ammunition" meaning our conventional ammunition where the bullet is FIXED into the case already.

And in US Code 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) for one of the American BATF definitions of an "antique arm"

Not a lot of people know that I'd bet!

The concept still survives, of course, in some modern artillery. A classic case was the old 25 Pounder Gun that had a separate projectile and the charge in a brass case.

 

[Muir]

The Husky 1640 has a 1-12" twist?? Really! I would have guessed 1-10" or some metric jibberish in that neighborhood!
Now, when you talk 30-06 and cast bullets you really have said a mouth-full. I cut my teeth on a 30-06 when I started shooting cast from bottle necked cartridges. Twenty grains of that 4198 and about any weight of bullet from 90 to 215 grains will suit for bunnies or target shooting, so save a little! My old buddy T.B. Cost, may he rest in peace, used to shoot 500M off hand metallic silhouette comps with a 30-06 I built for him and a Lyman bullet of 194 grains. On the wall of my shop I used to have some five-shot, four and five inch groups he fired at that distance from a rest, and one remarkable 3.5" group. He killed ibex and oryx on the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico with his trusty 30-06 and his Pb bullets, as well as well as every deer he ever drew a bead on.

As for myself, I have hunted rabbit, wild turkey, and deer with cast in the 30-06, as well as shot Cast Bullet Assn Military Rifle comps with it. This is practice group from my 1950's 1903-A3 match rifle. Ten shots at 100 yards. That's a perfect score as the ones in the "9" actually cut the ten ring when a scoring plug is inserted.

Lyman once made a bullet called the #308407 that was a tapered bullet with an oversized (.317" ) base. The idea is to size the bullet base until it slip fits in a fired case. A light target charge of powder is put in the reprimed, but yet unsized, case and the bullet set into the case mouth with your finger tips. Chambering the bullet seated the bullet into the lands. This is a target load but will shoot sub MOA from about any good 30 caliber. The late Frank d'Haas (gun writer and gunsmith) said he would win turkey shoots with this load.

Did I ever mention a .310 buck shot as a projectile?? Ah yes. You'll have fun with that aught-six. Thirty caliber cast bullets are where the real fun begins. ~Muir

 

[Muir]

As an historical aside the BEST ACCURACY in some early breechloader marksmen was obtained by using a wood rod to push the loose bullet into the bore and THEN placing the cartridge case behind!

I would advise not to try it!

Some considered this "cheating" so that even today some rifle clubs have in competition rules the words "fixed ammunition" meaning our conventional ammunition where the bullet is FIXED into the case already.

And in US Code 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) for one of the American BATF definitions of an "antique arm"

Not a lot of people know that I'd bet!

The concept still survives, of course, in some modern artillery. A classic case was the old 25 Pounder Gun that had a separate projectile and the charge in a brass case.

ES: This is known a "breech seating" and was used by Schuetzen-style comp shooters in the late 1800's. I wouldn't bother to do it with a bottle necked cartridge but the practice is safe when one understands the principles and procedure. It is generally used in conjunction with straight walled cases. (I have used it with a bottle necked rounds, using a 30 American Ruger Single Shot and a 30 Herret Martini single shot.) No one considered the use of this technique "cheating" as it was a universal practice and rifles were usually supplied with a breech-seater and bullet mould. In later comps, the use of breechseating went away, especially with the wide availability and acceptance of jacketed bullets.

The BATF reg (IIRC) refers to a way to differentiate between weapons capable of firing fixed ammo VS those using loose black powder... which aren't regulated by BATF (or any Federal law) at all. The main law regarding "antique" is manufacturing date, which the BATF ruled as 1898. There is a caveat about "readily available ammunition" but that is ignored in favor of the manufacturing date. I have a 25-20 Model 1892 Winchester made in 1897 that was shipped to my door, skipping a dealer, as it was pre-1898. Likewise, you can buy a 1895 Chilean Mauser in 7x57 through the mail in the US. I can buy ammo for both off of the shelf.~Muir

 

[harrygrey382]

The Husky 1640 has a 1-12" twist?? Really! I would have guessed 1-10" or some metric jibberish in that neighborhood!
Now, when you talk 30-06 and cast bullets you really have said a mouth-full. I cut my teeth on a 30-06 when I started shooting cast from bottle necked cartridges. Twenty grains of that 4198 and about any weight of bullet from 90 to 215 grains will suit for bunnies or target shooting, so save a little! My old buddy T.B. Cost, may he rest in peace, used to shoot 500M off hand metallic silhouette comps with a 30-06 I built for him and a Lyman bullet of 194 grains. On the wall of my shop I used to have some five-shot, four and five inch groups he fired at that distance from a rest, and one remarkable 3.5" group. He killed ibex and oryx on the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico with his trusty 30-06 and his Pb bullets, as well as well as every deer he ever drew a bead on.

As for myself, I have hunted rabbit, wild turkey, and deer with cast in the 30-06, as well as shot Cast Bullet Assn Military Rifle comps with it. This is practice group from my 1950's 1903-A3 match rifle. Ten shots at 100 yards. That's a perfect score as the ones in the "9" actually cut the ten ring when a scoring plug is inserted.

Lyman once made a bullet called the #308407 that was a tapered bullet with an oversized (.317" ) base. The idea is to size the bullet base until it slip fits in a fired case. A light target charge of powder is put in the reprimed, but yet unsized, case and the bullet set into the case mouth with your finger tips. Chambering the bullet seated the bullet into the lands. This is a target load but will shoot sub MOA from about any good 30 caliber. The late Frank d'Haas (gun writer and gunsmith) said he would win turkey shoots with this load.

Did I ever mention a .310 buck shot as a projectile?? Ah yes. You'll have fun with that aught-six. Thirty caliber cast bullets are where the real fun begins. ~Muir

Well you certainly know how to whet the appetite! I don't want to jinx it by saying I have the rifle yet - deposit cheque is in the post. Once they have acknowledged that and have put it aside then I can breath easy. I've been wanting a 1640 Husky so much I can't quite belive I've found the only one I've ever heard of in England, let alone for a good price for a cailbre I want. So we'll hold off on celebrations...

They did confirm it was 1-12. Also after quite a bit of reading on the Swedish civil arms gunboards forum, it seems most of the 1640s were 1-12, but most people report being able to fire all but but spire pointed 220grs with good accuracy. The rifle is an odd ball one too beause it's not D&T. The only one the experts on that forum had seen not D&T. Stock is also uncheckered. But otherwise it's a beauty.

So once it's confirmed, I'll be on the hunt for mold(s) and dies.

That's quite a target, I'd damn happy with that from cast or jacketed. I'm not so sure about 500m off hand shooting, I can't see how any amount of practice from myself could let me hit anything at that range. But practice I will, especially now I have a 243 cast load. Although, I was thinking it would take over as my small game rifle, but what your saying means it's kind of redundant... Didn't know you could get a 90gr 30 cal mold. What are some good general deer hunting molds I shoud look out for?

 

[enfieldspares]

This is known a "breech seating"...

That's it! That's the name. Thank you! I had long forgotten what it was correctly called and so had had to resort to calling it "the opposite of fixed ammunition where the bullet is put loose into the barrel"!

Certainly the British NRA "banned" it as a method as it was regarded as "cheating" because it gave better results than fixed ammunition AND was not using the "ammunition as issued" for the competition.

In some competitions under British NRA Rules the shooter turned up with his/her standard, but privately purchased and owned, military pattern rifle to be squadded to shoot AND NO CARTRIDGES and was actually (included in the entry fee) given the rounds that they would be using. The "ammunition as issued".

Using one's own handloads or this "breech seating" was considered to give an unfair advantage over the other shooters using the "ammunition as issued". And getting way from the idea of encouraging marksmanship with the "as issued" standard service pattern rifle and "as issued" standard service pattern ammunition.

"Breech seating". I try not to let it slip from my memory this time. Thanks.

 

[Muir]

That's it! That's the name. Thank you! I had long forgotten what it was correctly called and so had had to resort to calling it "the opposite of fixed ammunition where the bullet is put loose into the barrel"!

Certainly the British NRA "banned" it as a method as it was regarded as "cheating" because it gave better results than fixed ammunition AND was not using the "ammunition as issued" for the competition.

In some competitions under British NRA Rules the shooter turned up with his/her standard, but privately purchased and owned, military pattern rifle to be squadded to shoot AND NO CARTRIDGES and was actually (included in the entry fee) given the rounds that they would be using. The "ammunition as issued".

Using one's own handloads or this "breech seating" was considered to give an unfair advantage over the other shooters using the "ammunition as issued". And getting way from the idea of encouraging marksmanship with the "as issued" standard service pattern rifle and "as issued" standard service pattern ammunition.

"Breech seating". I try not to let it slip from my memory this time. Thanks.

Enfield: Ah, well. They still have these 200M Schuetzen comps in the US so it's a fairly common term you hear batted around.

I'm curious. What kind of comps are you talking of? I know of no one who breech seats jacketed bullets, tho no doubt it could be done with a properly throated gun. Almost all references to Breech Seating are connected to single shot rifles with cast bullets. The method I described with the old Lyman mold is the closest way to accurately duplicate the practice with bottle-necked cartridges.~Muir

(And yes! It works!)

 

[Muir]

Well you certainly know how to whet the appetite! I don't want to jinx it by saying I have the rifle yet - deposit cheque is in the post. Once they have acknowledged that and have put it aside then I can breath easy. I've been wanting a 1640 Husky so much I can't quite belive I've found the only one I've ever heard of in England, let alone for a good price for a cailbre I want. So we'll hold off on celebrations...

They did confirm it was 1-12. Also after quite a bit of reading on the Swedish civil arms gunboards forum, it seems most of the 1640s were 1-12, but most people report being able to fire all but but spire pointed 220grs with good accuracy. The rifle is an odd ball one too beause it's not D&T. The only one the experts on that forum had seen not D&T. Stock is also uncheckered. But otherwise it's a beauty.

So once it's confirmed, I'll be on the hunt for mold(s) and dies.

That's quite a target, I'd damn happy with that from cast or jacketed. I'm not so sure about 500m off hand shooting, I can't see how any amount of practice from myself could let me hit anything at that range. But practice I will, especially now I have a 243 cast load. Although, I was thinking it would take over as my small game rifle, but what your saying means it's kind of redundant... Didn't know you could get a 90gr 30 cal mold. What are some good general deer hunting molds I shoud look out for?

Wow. Sounds like an interesting rifle! A 1-12" twist is fine, just odd. It's hard to know what mold to buy without actually having the rifle. A measurement of the bore diameter, the cylindrical dimension between the tops of the rifling lands, determines what bullet will be best used. Your 6mm mold is a Loverine design with lube rings all its length. These molds work fine and they work no matter what the bore diameter, provided the groove diameter is correctly set.

The other kind of mold is a bore riding design: a set of driving bands to the rear and a long nose that rides atop and is guided by the lands, just lightly engraving as it goes in its way. You can get some serious accuracy at high speeds from these bullets and I like them for a number of reasons. One is that usually, the lube is inside the neck and not exposed to dirt and pocket lint. This is a bore-riding bullet


I used them in competition quite a bit when I shot in the military matches. This grainy pic is the 100 yard, "tie-breaker" group fired at a Cast bullet military match in Albuquerque, New Mexico many years ago. The rifle is a SAKO Model 1939 Finnish in 7.62x54R. This was shot with a Lee bullet.

If your rifle has a bore diameter of .300" or less you could order an RCBS 30-180-SP at 180 grains (Nominally listed as 180 but with gascheck, lube, and variance in alloy the weight is up around 187 grains. I think RCBS bases weight on linotype.... Anyhow, this is about the finest 30 cal cast bullet I have ever shot. My 308 hunting rifle will tuck them on top of each other at 100M.

The 90 grain cast bullets for the 30 cal... and you can get lighter... are for the 32-20 cartridge. If you want a light "gallery" bullet you can shoot the 75 grain bullets made for a 32 ACP! Or that .310" buck-shot ball I wrote about. The possibilities are almost endless. (sigh!)~Muir

 

[harrygrey382]

Wow. Sounds like an interesting rifle! A 1-12" twist is fine, just odd. It's hard to know what mold to buy without actually having the rifle. A measurement of the bore diameter, the cylindrical dimension between the tops of the rifling lands, determines what bullet will be best used. Your 6mm mold is a Loverine design with lube rings all its length. These molds work fine and they work no matter what the bore diameter, provided the groove diameter is correctly set.

The other kind of mold is a bore riding design: a set of driving bands to the rear and a long nose that rides atop and is guided by the lands, just lightly engraving as it goes in its way. You can get some serious accuracy at high speeds from these bullets and I like them for a number of reasons. One is that usually, the lube is inside the neck and not exposed to dirt and pocket lint. This is a bore-riding bullet


I used them in competition quite a bit when I shot in the military matches. This grainy pic is the 100 yard, "tie-breaker" group fired at a Cast bullet military match in Albuquerque, New Mexico many years ago. The rifle is a SAKO Model 1939 Finnish in 7.62x54R. This was shot with a Lee bullet.


If your rifle has a bore diameter of .300" or less you could order an RCBS 30-180-SP at 180 grains (Nominally listed as 180 but with gascheck, lube, and variance in alloy the weight is up around 187 grains. I think RCBS bases weight on linotype.... Anyhow, this is about the finest 30 cal cast bullet I have ever shot. My 308 hunting rifle will tuck them on top of each other at 100M.

The 90 grain cast bullets for the 30 cal... and you can get lighter... are for the 32-20 cartridge. If you want a light "gallery" bullet you can shoot the 75 grain bullets made for a 32 ACP! Or that .310" buck-shot ball I wrote about. The possibilities are almost endless. (sigh!)~Muir

Thanks for the info, as always. Yep I'm working myself into a state of excitement about it all - too much choice! I'll get the rifle first (and post copious pictures), take some measurements then go mold hunting. I'd heard mention of bore ride vs loverin and didn't quite get it. I do now. I guess my priorities are more hunting than target shooting, although an accurate load is high priority (not that you need telling). You have a good point about not getting crud in the grroves though. I need to knock up a nice bullet pouch really. I'm guessing the bore rider needs a more critical bore diameter? Would I be better suited to the loverin as a beginner?

 

[Muir]

Sorry! I didn't finish the thought on the bore rider! Yes, the bullet dimensions are more critical in that the nose of the bullet must ride on the tops of the rifling lands to be effective. If unsupported, the nose is free to woggle about instead of being guided by the bore. Undersized noses work fine at low velocity loadings but seldom produce good results at high velocity. My "quick test" of a bore-riding bullet's suitability is to drop it into the muzzle, nose first. If it drops to the driving bands with a clank, it's too small. If it's a push fit, ok.

When buying a mold for a new rifle, it's best to measure the bore diameter directly. You can tap in a pure lead slug and find a way to accurately measure the areas between the lands, or borrow a small hole gage from a machinist. (engineer) Most bore riding 30 cals will have a nose diameter of .301" if done correctly. If your bore is larger than nominal and you still want to use a bore rider, you simply switch to a mold designed for the .303 British. Sized to .310 or .311 inches these bullets will take up the nose slack. Part of the beauty of cast bullets is the ability to custom fit the bullet to your throat.~Muir