Casting bullets can you use them for Deer??

Wordsalad

Member
Hi
I'm interested in casting bullets and hand loading , whats the legal situation with using a cast bullet for deer?? obviously a certain weight is required but are there any other parameters required as with regular ammunition.
 

xavierdoc

Well-Known Member
I'd be interested to know the answer to this question, too.

Obviously you'll need meet minimum calibre/velocity/energy requirements (delete as applicable).

However, your missile also needs to be "designed to expand" on impact. We all know cast bullets kill deer and other quarry but from the legal standpoint, do you have to cast hollow points (or convert them to hollow points after)? Or, if you use a more deformable alloy of lead (eg. "softer") for your cast hunting bullets than your cast target bullets, arguably you have "designed" that bullet to expand.

Perhaps some test shots into clay to demonstrate expansion would provide proof in the unlikely event it was required?
 

african jack

Well-Known Member
IF you load lead to deer legal velocity I would not like to be the one getting the lead fouling out of your lands don't do it you cannot drive lead fast enough minimum legal velocity for deer 2450 f/p/s in the UK
 
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09mutley05

Well-Known Member
velocity is only require north of the wall, a heavy slow slug would be ok south of the border as long as it generates 1700ft lbs, could work in my .45-70

atb Matt
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
IF you load lead to deer legal velocity I would not like to be the one getting the lead fouling out of your lands don't do it you cannot drive lead fast enough
Not true.
Leading is not due to velocity. That is a myth that has persisted for many decades -so don't feel bad for repeating it. ;)

When there are no other contributing factors, leading is caused by pressure. When the pressure exceeds the yield strength of the alloy being used, you get leading. Lead bullets compress somewhat under pressure and then return to their original shape as the pressure lessens. When the pressure has exceeded the strength of the alloy the bullet no longer returns to it's original shape. When the collapse is severe you get leading. As you work up cast loads you will first see this manifested in a sharp falling off in accuracy and the reduction or disappearance of the "lube star" formed by the remaining lube on the muzzle. (as it jets out between the lands of rifling) Ideally, you get no irreversible compression and the lube just makes a faint star on the muzzle. This is when you have gotten the most from your load.

I have three decades of experimentation and application shooting high velocity cast bullets. My 206 grain 8x57 load develops a chronographed 2400 fps. I shoot a 168 grain 309" 30-06 load at 2500+ fps. I shot the same bullet from my 308. JAYB of this site has watched me load and shoot a 56 grain .225" bullet from my .222 at 2750 fps into MOA groups, and unsuspecting prairiedogs. ~Muir

(That was more then you counted on, wasn't it??)
 
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Southern

Well-Known Member
If velocity is not an issue for the .45-70, I would think a 300-gr lead bullet at 1800 fps, from something like H-4198, would be the trick. That is a very accurate load with a jacketed SP 300-gr, and little recoil.
 

Greener Jim

Well-Known Member
100% legal so long as it expands. No different to selecting the correct jacketed bullet eg not using a varmint bullet for deer or using a bullet designed for much larger game.

If it's deer legal energy wise you're good t go. I load 405gr flat point at just over 1500fps giving over 2000 ft-lbs.
I'll be using them on deer when I just see one!

However, your missile also needs to be "designed to expand" on impact. We all know cast bullets kill deer and other quarry but from the legal standpoint, do you have to cast hollow points (or convert them to hollow points after)? Or, if you use a more deformable alloy of lead (eg. "softer") for your cast hunting bullets than your cast target bullets, arguably you have "designed" that bullet to expand.

Perhaps some test shots into clay to demonstrate expansion would provide proof in the unlikely event it was required?
Which is exactly what I did. I bought the bullets from Shellhouse Bullet Company. Donald cast be 50 at 10 bhn and 50 at 15 bhn.
The 15 bhn bullets turned out perfect. Penetrate like a hot knife through warm butter and expanded to .75" on average (depending on media)
Did this to a hill:
View attachment 52384
I don't have small hands. I think it'll perform on deer just fine :) :)
 

deerwarden

Well-Known Member
If velocity is not an issue for the .45-70, I would think a 300-gr lead bullet at 1800 fps, from something like H-4198, would be the trick. That is a very accurate load with a jacketed SP 300-gr, and little recoil.
I have a Ulberti 45-60 that I have for deer, the above is what I'm trying to achieve with a 295 or a 350 gn cast lead bullet. I've read that gas checks will stop severe leading once you start pushing the velocity. Don't want to hijack the thread but I'm keen to reach the 1700ft/Ids of energy. Love my 45-60 and found lots of imo on Cas City by those who use the 45-60 in the States. deerwarden
 

Greener Jim

Well-Known Member
That makes a nice change from the usual 45-70's.
Which load data are you going to use? It seems 45-60 may be tricky to get over 1700 ft-lbs.
 

tackb

Well-Known Member
as long as you get the legally reqd energy I think you should be fine , lead will by nature deform on impact and lets not forget that if you use a 45 cal of some description the bullet is starting out bigger than the ever popular 243 finishes !

I'm fairly certain that a 45 calibre permanent wound channel will be fairly effective !
 

VIGILAIRE

Well-Known Member
Especially with a flat nose. Transfers a lot of energy.
Am working up a couple of loads with a 9.3 bullet in this design which are showing much promise as a practice/target load. Am confident they would perform on live quarry just as well with the advantage you can eat up to the hole.
 

african jack

Well-Known Member
Muir what composition are you using, in the sixties I used to use linotype (could get it then before computer printing) casting 160gr for my 308w once I got near the 2000f/p/s I used to get bad leading in the lands so gave up on it Ok things must have improved just curious to no your percentage mix thanks glynne
 

The tramp

Well-Known Member
as long as you get the legally reqd energy I think you should be fine , lead will by nature deform on impact and lets not forget that if you use a 45 cal of some description the bullet is starting out bigger than the ever popular 243 finishes !

I'm fairly certain that a 45 calibre permanent wound channel will be fairly effective !
I can vouch that a .430" hole works well. I was using .430" 325gr wide flat nose gas checked cast boolits in my 444 marlin. Dropped everything it hit.
 

Muir

Well-Known Member
Muir what composition are you using, in the sixties I used to use linotype (could get it then before computer printing) casting 160gr for my 308w once I got near the 2000f/p/s I used to get bad leading in the lands so gave up on it Ok things must have improved just curious to no your percentage mix thanks glynne
Linotype is notorious for depositing stubborn tin plating in your barrel once the pressures pass critical stage. I use a 1:9 mix of lino/common wheel weight metal and then heat treat the bullets -baking them at 460F for an hour and quenching them in room temp water. The hardness of these bullets is about 50% harder than linotype. (31 Bhn to lino's 21 Bhn). When fit well these bullets will take 44K Psi and still survive. What I'm looking for in the mix is antimony so I'll exchange 'hard' lead shot instead of lino when i can get it.

There are other factors in leading: Barrel condition and bullet fit, but pressure is the real culprit with all other details attended to.~Muir
 

JAYB

Administrator
Site Staff
Not true.
Leading is not due to velocity. That is a myth that has persisted for many decades -so don't feel bad for repeating it. ;)

When there are no other contributing factors, leading is caused by pressure. When the pressure exceeds the yield strength of the alloy being used, you get leading. Lead bullets compress somewhat under pressure and then return to their original shape as the pressure lessens. When the pressure has exceeded the strength of the alloy the bullet no longer returns to it's original shape. When the collapse is severe you get leading. As you work up cast loads you will first see this manifested in a sharp falling off in accuracy and the reduction or disappearance of the "lube star" formed by the remaining lube on the muzzle. (as it jets out between the lands of rifling) Ideally, you get no irreversible compression and the lube just makes a faint star on the muzzle. This is when you have gotten the most from your load.

I have three decades of experimentation and application shooting high velocity cast bullets. My 206 grain 8x57 load develops a chronographed 2400 fps. I shoot a 168 grain 309" 30-06 load at 2500+ fps. I shot the same bullet from my 308. JAYB of this site has watched me load and shoot a 56 grain .225" bullet from my .222 at 2750 fps into MOA groups, and unsuspecting prairiedogs. ~Muir

(That was more then you counted on, wasn't it??)
Don't prod this bear you will regret it :) He loves his cast!

John
 

deerwarden

Well-Known Member
That makes a nice change from the usual 45-70's.
Which load data are you going to use? It seems 45-60 may be tricky to get over 1700 ft-lbs.
I have data for H4198, 34 gns with a 320 gn bullet gives 1830 fps, =2379 ft/ids, 46 gns Varget with a 340gn bullet works out at 1646 fps = 2045ft/lds. there are lots of data on CasCity.Com a website dedicated to hunting and shooting western guns. I have a chrony and have made up loads that are deer legal for the U.K. deerwarden.
 

Greener Jim

Well-Known Member
Wow, that's much more potent than I've seen before. Good on ya mate. Something different and with that kinda energy it'll definitely do the job :)

I like doing different things, hence my 45-120 ;)
 

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