been granted 17hmr 223 for foxes 243 for deer great been back and forth had supervision removed and asked for correct wording on the 243 come back with the .243 rifle, sound moderator and ammunition shall be used for shooting deer and any lawful quarry ,whilst out deer stalking and for zeroing on ranges,or land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot . the bit i have problems is whilst out deer stalking is this correct
certificate
- Thread starter smoker
- Start date
scrumbag
Well-Known Member
Afraid I don't agree with that. What if the guy wants to sit up for a boar?
jimbo1984
Well-Known Member
Boar with a .243??
scrumbag
Well-Known Member
Oh I agree Jimbo, wouldn't be my choice and not in accordance with HO Guidelines either. My point is it doesn't seem to sit within the spirit of any other legal quarry and to me looks like a licensing dept trying to put AOLQ on but neuter it somewhat.
(Just my nasty suspicious mind you understand).
ATB,
Scrummy
the only issue i have is that if i was out stalking with 243 and then wanted to go lamping for foxes i would then be breaking the law as you can not shoot deer at night . this seems to me that i would have to use the 223 which is good but that would mean takeing both rifles with me which will be akward or leave one in the car which will be illegal as some of the ground i shoot is 140 miles from where i live
jimbo1984
Well-Known Member
Yes I think you're right sir I think that it's high time flds sang from the same hymn sheet and stopped making things up as they go along , however I doubt it will happen
atb Jim
GunsmithDolphinholme
Well-Known Member
Sounds like they have made it almost like a closed cert to me.
You can use your rifle whilst deer stalking (thinking there refering to payed place to stalk e.g. your off to scotland for a day out dsc1 or 2 stuff etc) or on ranges, Or on land deemed suitable by your police force (e.g your land you have got permission on that they have checked)
Nothing stopping you shooting/lamping fox on land you have cleared buy police force to use or AOLQ for that matter
beside each weapon system should have (experienced - Open)
As you said you had supervisions removed make me think its closed.
But well Iv never had a closed cert thankfully and got AOLQ. Prob one of the few thats had open cert from first applying.
Mine reads as like this
5. Expanding Ammunition – (a&b)
The Certificate holder may posses, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or the missiles of such ammunition, in calibres .22RF and .308 ammunition authorised by this certificate and used only in connection with : -
(a) the lawful shooting of deer & (b) the shooting of vermin, or in the connection with management of any estate, other wildlife.
6. QUARRY – VERMIN/GROUND GAME – (EXPERIANCED – OPEN)
The .22.RF Rifle and .22RF Sound Moderator and ammunition shall be used for the shooting of vermin and ground game and for zeroing on ranges or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.
7. QUARRY – DEER & ANY OTHER LAWFUL QUARRY – (EXPERIANCED – OPEN)
The .308 Rifle and .308 Sound Moderator and ammunition shall be used for the shooting deer and any other lawful quarry, and for zeroing on ranges or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.
You can use your rifle whilst deer stalking (thinking there refering to payed place to stalk e.g. your off to scotland for a day out dsc1 or 2 stuff etc) or on ranges, Or on land deemed suitable by your police force (e.g your land you have got permission on that they have checked)
Nothing stopping you shooting/lamping fox on land you have cleared buy police force to use or AOLQ for that matter
beside each weapon system should have (experienced - Open)
As you said you had supervisions removed make me think its closed.
But well Iv never had a closed cert thankfully and got AOLQ. Prob one of the few thats had open cert from first applying.
Mine reads as like this
5. Expanding Ammunition – (a&b)
The Certificate holder may posses, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition, or the missiles of such ammunition, in calibres .22RF and .308 ammunition authorised by this certificate and used only in connection with : -
(a) the lawful shooting of deer & (b) the shooting of vermin, or in the connection with management of any estate, other wildlife.
6. QUARRY – VERMIN/GROUND GAME – (EXPERIANCED – OPEN)
The .22.RF Rifle and .22RF Sound Moderator and ammunition shall be used for the shooting of vermin and ground game and for zeroing on ranges or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.
7. QUARRY – DEER & ANY OTHER LAWFUL QUARRY – (EXPERIANCED – OPEN)
The .308 Rifle and .308 Sound Moderator and ammunition shall be used for the shooting deer and any other lawful quarry, and for zeroing on ranges or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.
Last edited:
scrumbag
Well-Known Member
Well Jimbo, only us will hold them to account so we have to do it. Only we as shooters can improve our lot sadly. (And sad that it has come to this really)
GunsmithDolphinholme
Well-Known Member
Well you can if your in scotland.
Im guessing your professional keeper/stalker will have a weapon with so you can just say you have been out all day with your 243.
Also if your wording does not say you have to be with someone. "whilst out deer stalking and for zeroing on ranges"
So you may have a closed but it is effectively open.
They should have put on your cert, Whilst under supervision of an experienced open certificate holder of same caliber or greater. Or on land cleared by your Police department.
I'd just suck it up for 12 months then send your paper work back for it to be fully opened. Also make sure you buy and use ammo regularly just to show use on your cert.
Im guessing your professional keeper/stalker will have a weapon with so you can just say you have been out all day with your 243.
Also if your wording does not say you have to be with someone. "whilst out deer stalking and for zeroing on ranges"
So you may have a closed but it is effectively open.
They should have put on your cert, Whilst under supervision of an experienced open certificate holder of same caliber or greater. Or on land cleared by your Police department.
I'd just suck it up for 12 months then send your paper work back for it to be fully opened. Also make sure you buy and use ammo regularly just to show use on your cert.
multiman
Well-Known Member
Smoker
Why dont you write a nice letter to the dept at Carmarthen stating your problem with the 243. i.e. you dont want to take two rifles with you and leaving one in the car which be in breech of your fac etc. I think once you have pointed this out and that they are encouraging you to breech your fac. I belive they will re word it for you
Regards Multiman
Why dont you write a nice letter to the dept at Carmarthen stating your problem with the 243. i.e. you dont want to take two rifles with you and leaving one in the car which be in breech of your fac etc. I think once you have pointed this out and that they are encouraging you to breech your fac. I belive they will re word it for you
Regards Multiman
Although I'm under a different constabulary, that's what I did and ended up with AOLQ on everything from 22rf up to the 338, if you drop me a p.m with your e-mail address I'll ssend you a copy of it.
Ade
Should have also asked, how long have you held your FAC for? It does make a difference as to what they will allow.
Your certificate is definitely closed at the moment and you can not legally use your rifles on any land that has not been cleared, even if you are supervised. Reason being, your certificate relates to what YOU are conditioned for not anyone supervising you. Most constabularies will automatically issue an open ticket on the first renewal, but I know of cases where certificates have been opened up after only 12 to 18 months, when the holder has proved the need to go onto land that has not been cleared by police.
Edit to the edit, Why don't you get CWD and Munty put on the .223, it's legal for them
Last edited:
It's just to stop you going out with the 243 at night. Whether right or wrong I would think their reasoning is you have a perfectly capable caliber for this in the 223. I would doubt it would be wise to go stalking then directly out foxing in any case. What would happen if you shot a deer at last light, had a lengthy follow up and a finishing shot at dark, then shot a fox an hour later only to be pulled by cops on the way to a different ground. Could look like you had shot deer at night!
Sure you could explain things and the cops can generally tell if you are honest and telling truth, but you only need an over zealous one and things could get sticky.
So I just stick with your apparently open ticket and go foxing with the 223. Then just ask for 243 to be allowed for foxes and jobs a good un.
Sure you could explain things and the cops can generally tell if you are honest and telling truth, but you only need an over zealous one and things could get sticky.
So I just stick with your apparently open ticket and go foxing with the 223. Then just ask for 243 to be allowed for foxes and jobs a good un.
Tommy Kaira
Well-Known Member
It's my understanding that there is no maximum calibre for a given quarry. Therefore, it should be up to the OP if he wants to use his .243 for foxes. He should be allowed to use it for rabbits if he wants. As long as he achives a humane kill why should he not go bigger. I use my .243 for foxes and I wouldn't see a problem using my 300blk either.
But then again, this is a direct quote from my firearms office on a recent visit "You can't have expanding ammo for foxes unless you've done your DSC1. It's expanding ammo, that means dum-dum bullets. You could kill someone. So I'm just going to give you 1200 of FMJ for target OK?" so I guess they really are a law unto themselves.
But then again, this is a direct quote from my firearms office on a recent visit "You can't have expanding ammo for foxes unless you've done your DSC1. It's expanding ammo, that means dum-dum bullets. You could kill someone. So I'm just going to give you 1200 of FMJ for target OK?" so I guess they really are a law unto themselves.
phoned basc they explained what was correct from acpo and to phone the po which i did and explained exactly the fax and what multiman has said about carrying the 2 weapons There responce was that is what you applied for and they will look in to it as of the 2 rifles they could see the point i want to stay on the right side of the law
Tommy, I hope this is a wind up as I've never heard such a pile of tosh before. If this is true I would imagine they are using the DSC1 as an argument to prove your markmans ship and suitablity to take a safe clean shot. So what about the thousands of Fac holders who regularily shoot foxes with expanding ammo and have never stalked deer and have no intention of doing a DSC1. None of what you quote even meets with ACPO and Home Office guide lines.
I hope you challenged them.
been on the phone to firearms department know there saying that the 17 hmr is ok for foxes and they will remove the [whilst out deer stalking] because i agreed to rmove the 223 .they also said that some of the land in my area is not passed for 243 which i did agree . But i feel i am in a corner and have to agree with what they say. so i am make a complaint to the police complaints department with advice from basc fire arms department now i feel realy scared .
