Copper and internal deflections

[75]

Well this is going as expected.

100% comfortable with clear shot through branches (as indicated by entry being exactly where I aimed).

100% confident of backstop.

Not confident of the 8” deflection regardless of where the shot was placed.

 

[User100]

My experience on fallow with Sako Powerhead Blade and S&B TXRG Blue 120gr with 6.5CM is at anything over 130 yards if it hits the 5th rib the bullet has often deflected and gone through the rumen. But goes straight through 3rd or 4th (my max 200m). It has also gone straight through the 6th.

So I prefer to aim for in front of the leg on a perfect broadside.

Adding to this, I find that using a C50 judging the angle of quartering is distinctly more difficult compared with an optical scope.

Looking at the OP photos, it doesn't appear like the angle of quarter is such that the entry and exit would be in a straight line from the rifle.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Bullets can do strange things sometimes, regardless of what material they're made of.

Absolutely this

I had a run of these last year. Just sods law.... of averages. A few with 136gr Gecco Zero and a few with 120gr CX - completely different bullets from .308 and 6.5cm. It happens and it certainly happened with lead. You might just be on a bad roll.

Edit....To add, they always bloody deflected the 'wrong' way too, no matter if beast was quartering on, broadside or quartering away.....always deflected towards the liver/stomach, never to the neck

 

[webley701]

There’s more than a few videos showing bullet performance in properly cast ballistic gel blocks. Even in this uniform media, after penetrating straight for several inches, bullets sometimes veer drastically off line enough to exit through the side of the block.

 

[Scipio]

Please, please, please - this is not a slag-off-copper-thread. But I am curious on anyone's objective experience of internal deflections with copper.

I've had a few shots of late that I've struggled to explain - exclusively with 130gn TTSX in 308. It's a new rifle and I settled on that bullet as I've heard good reports of the 130gn in 308 and I like them in 120gn in my 6.5-284.

In summary, I've had more deflections off ribs / bone in 2 weeks than I ever recall in many years of stalking!

It's gone a bit silly with stomachs burst in 4 deer in the last couple of weeks - we're talking reds here not munties so they are big old lumps with some margin for error. I've also started using an Alpex which auto-records shots, so for the first time ever I've been able to look back at shot placement and, more importantly, angle of the deer. Almost certainly, I would previously have put anything like this down to user error and a crap shot on my part (e.g. the deer was quartering more than I thought) but now I can look back in detail. On each of the recent occasions I've been so annoyed with myself that I've taken a very critical look to see what I did wrong.

Here is an example...

The shot - about as close to broadside as you can get. Screenshot is at moment I pulled trigger (note - there are 3 deer in the shot, the spiker has his head down feeding):

View attachment 408056

I know folk are going to draw red triangles on the image above and tell me where they would have put the bullet but that's not the point of the thread (if we can possibly avoid going down that route ).

When skinned, here's the entry - as expected - tucked under the armpit:

View attachment 408058

And broadside shot so you'd expect exit about the same spot on the other side... Right?!

View attachment 408059

This is an 80kg spiker not an 8kg muntie so that is quite a deflection. Probably 8" or so, which is not far off 45 degrees.

It's not something I've ever had an issue with. Maybe if I think back many years I can recall a muntie that I low neck shot and exited out the haunch (lead bullet) or fallow shot through the shoulder on my DSC2 where the bullet deflected and the deer needed a follow up (lead again). But I'm struggling to think of any other examples over many deer shot. So 4 deer in a fortnight makes me very uneasy!

I am certainly being much more forward with placement with this rifle / bullet combo and definitely avoiding anything that looks like it's quartering-on. In that example above, I'd now pull that same shot forward a good few inches and take out shoulders. Maybe it's just bad luck but it has certainly got me doubting things.

I'd welcome any real world experiences (ideally telling me what a great bullet 130 gn TTSX is and how I've jut been very unlucky )

Hello mate, and kudos for making this thread, and including images too, so that we can all learn from this, and hopefully grow smarter as a group

My intial thoughts are two:

1) that we're possibly still talking a quite small sample size, and that once you've shot 60 + deer with the 130 ttsx this will no longer be an odd tendency of this bullet design and weight.

2). Sectional density might be an issue.
130 grns in a 30 cal is SD wise more or less equivalent to using a 110 grn 7mm bullet or a 95 grn bullet in a 6.5 cal.
So when your 120 grn 6.5-284 was impacting bone in a similar area of the body and on similarly sized deer, it was likely doing so not only with more velocity than your 130 grn 30 cal ttsx was, but with more effective penetrational capability/joule as well, due to its higher sd.
I'd suggest going up a weightclass to 14os or even 150 grn coppers, and see if increasing the sectional density of your bullet wont help. Maybe you've gone a bit too low SD wise, even for copper bullets, to realiably punch through bone and cartillage vs seeing more deflections happen?

But this is just a theory, and i have no experience of 30 cals + i am only now starting to shoot non leads myself. So perhaps someone with more 308 non lead experience will chip and help to confirm or debunk this theory.

 

[Freeforester]

Seems the OP is not alone: extract from Chairman’s column of current SGA magazine

 

[Scipio]

Interesting read, @Freeforester thank you
What the sample size of "informal chats" and "pooling more views" more exactly constitutes, and if it is large enough to draw definitive conclusions, is an important question though. I see they mention a page 14 and 15, could you perhaps upload these as well ?
But yes, as much proper emperical ressearch as possible being done and published is of course welcome, that should only help us become better hunters after all

PS. As a side leg to such information gathering on the use of copper and deflections, i would be quite interested to see a focus on how light in weight for caliber the non lead using hunters most often experiencing these deflections were going, and if there was perhaps a pattern of these hunters maybe going a tad lower vs the hunters not experiecing this so much .

 

[Smellydog]

Courting couple in February!! Fair play. We don't start that until May.

 

[Mr. Gain]

Head down shot deer often result in a burst rumen; the act of raising its neck shifts the rumen relative to the diaphragm. You probably know this.

I didn't. One to remember.

 

[NoIDeer]

Did that bullet pierce the rumen or the suction from the bullet passing through cause the diaphragm and rumen to split? That exit hole looks a couple of ribs forward of the diaphragm?

 

[jthyttin]

Does Alpex and/or C50 have lag in display or recorded video vs. what's happening in real life? Some thermals are or at least used to be notorious for this. Targets are not moving, so wouldn't show up in zero check.

Also marginally stable monometals could well deflect more than expected. But not 130 TTSX in 308, if it has regular 1-12" twist or tighter.

 

[HallyButt]

Do you think that maybe it’s quartering more than it looks? The angle of the back legs is the same in the picture (ie it isn’t taking a step forward with one leg, they look to be in the same position) yet you can clearly see both back legs indicating that it’s quartering to you? Do you think that it’s possible that instead of deflections that you are struggling with depth perception on the flatter image of the alpex compared to the scope you are used to?

That was exactly my thought, additionally I’ve had no issues with copper Sako Blades but gravitate more toward high shoulder shot (as with lead)

 

[Freeforester]

Interesting read, @Freeforester thank you
What the sample size of "informal chats" and "pooling more views" more exactly constitutes, and if it is large enough to draw definitive conclusions, is an important question though. I see they mention a page 14 and 15, could you perhaps upload these as well ?
But yes, as much proper emperical ressearch as possible being done and published is of course welcome, that should only help us become better hunters after all

PS. As a side leg to such information gathering on the use of copper and deflections, i would be quite interested to see a focus on how light in weight for caliber the non lead using hunters most often experiencing these deflections were going, and if there was perhaps a pattern of these hunters maybe going a tad lower vs the hunters not experiecing this so much .

I did not personally respond to the survey, as a) I am not a contractor shooting large numbers of deer at night in forestry (those who do often typically shoot into double figures per night session) and b) I have no intention of changing over to using copper rounds, based on observations and discussions with professional stalkers where guests have used them. These concerns are mainly welfare based but also from a practical point of view, a deer running off with a pencilled hole in it is a different proposition to one with made with a lead core bullet designed to perform and expand in a largely predictable manner. It would appear that of the 263 respondents some 190 were used in the delivery of the final statistics.
The findings are to my mind significant, and the concerns real, anyone may have an opinion on the matter, and this is as may be, but from those at the ‘coal face’ this is what those sufficiently interested in responding to the survey felt.

As the OP suggests, there are serious questions being raised about the performance of these non lead-cored rounds, which tend to begin, and at the point of contact and just beyond seems to be where matters get to be more than a little concerning.

Most contractors are obliged to use miminim .270 calibre I think, as these agencies (including the night licence issuing authority) already recognised for several years the problems which definitely arise when using smaller calibre rounds in the particular scenario; this was the case within the. National Forest Estate even before the introduction of non-lead ammunition.

For what it’s worth, my feeling is that as long as you can clearly see the patch of target animal unobstructed and are satisfied that the animal is broadside, and personally I would have no qualms about shooting the animal pictured (- assuming the backstop safety aspect was considered to have been suitable) aside from seasonal considerations, which differ between Scotland and England/Wales.




Apologies for the shadows cast on the text, these however are, I feel less important when compared to the clouds surrounding the use of such bullets on live targets. Seems I’m not alone.

 

[Tim.243]

Recovered from the rump of a Muntjac shot in the neck traveled along the inside missing the greens entered the inside of the back leg
(found a small bruise) skinned to find the exit in the rump!

 

[Rutland lad]

What I’d like to see for my own curiosity is a ‘softness index’ so we know which bullets are at the hard end of the monometal scale and those at the softest.
I suspect (I don’t know) that that those at the harder end of the scale are those that are giving people problems
There’s copper - and there’s copper…….

 

[Tim.243]

What I’d like to see for my own curiosity is a ‘softness index’ so we know which bullets are at the hard end of the monometal scale and those at the softest.
I suspect (I don’t know) that that those at the harder end of the scale are those that are giving people problems
There’s copper - and there’s copper…….

If you get into the exotic coppers then there is a world of difference, copper work hardens which makes me wonder if they are annealed after machining ? The thing is they would not be bright and shiny.

 

[Scipio]

Thank you

What I’d like to see for my own curiosity is a ‘softness index’ so we know which bullets are at the hard end of the monometal scale and those at the softest.
I suspect (I don’t know) that that those at the harder end of the scale are those that are giving people problems
There’s copper - and there’s copper…….

Hello mate Well that's a very Interesting idea. At the very least having larger scale feed back surveys done, where such things can be singled out and looked upon, would be good. Hopefully such surveys are already Being done.

Ask for copper not just being copper, it reminds me of an interview I heard with one of the owners of Hammer bullets and Ron Spomer.
The hammer bullets guy explained that there were numerous different types of copper, which would have different properties when used as bullets, and that finding a copper type with the right properties for a given bullet design was actually a major part of the task for them, when developing a bullet.

So yep, I could imagine bullet hardness on impact, and maybe there though deformation rate and type, being different between bullet designs, and that this could affect the chance of ricochets.
but even different bullet weights for the same bullet and caliber, affecting SD, or the velocity at impact, could perhaps affect those things, and thus the chances of bullet deviations.

But This said, isn't lead bullets doing much the same thing fairly commonly as well?
Are we sure this is a problem particular to just non leads, or that it's greater with non leads

 

[Ruby Tuesday 2]

I've just skinned three fallow and all three were shot with copper but the damaged caused is not like I've had before, I should have taken pictures but I've already quartered them. We have to remember also that the diaphragm isn't flat but has a concave dimension inside the ribe cage so even if the bullet looks like it's in front of it in side profile on both sides it could have passed through it in the centre.

 

[75]

Thanks again to all those who took the trouble to reply constructively, including some very helpful thoughts by PM and text from people who shoot a lot more deer than me.

I'm probably going to drop away from this thread now but will let it run its course if others want to take it further.

In summary, my thoughts are as follows:

1. All copper bullets are not equal - we all know that but it's more nuanced than I though. I have no issue with 120gn TTSX in 6.5mm but 130gn TTSX in 308 do not behave in the same way. Thinking back, I had multiple 130gn bullets fail to exit on big stags early season and I'm now experiencing unexpected deflections at closer ranges on hinds and calves. Plan is to load some heavier TTSX in 308 and see how they perform.
2. A secondary point but worth noting, digital scopes take a little getting used to - as others have commented, the image is "flatter" than glass and there are occasional unexpected results. Whether this is a tech issue or whether I will learn to adapt remains to be seen. For now I'll focus on issue 1 and see how I progress.

 

[Rutland lad]

I must say that I’ve shot exclusively non lead for the last 10+ years. I don’t regularly see what you’ve described. I have on occasion had deflections but these are rare.
The day is coming when lead will be outlawed, hence I think it’s worth persevering in trying to find the right bullet for your quarry and your rifle. They are out there.