Copper hunting bullets

swampy

Account Suspended
#2
fast

Hi Mark, they are fast. What is the nose design on these bullets and what are thier terminal ballistics like? Do they leave lots of copper in your barrell?

Steve
 

MarkH

Well-Known Member
#3
Hi Swampy

THe terminal ballistics are excellent. The plastic tip just makes the bullet more areodynamic, nothing else. The hollow point fragments abut 5cm into the beast creating 4-5 large secondary projectiles that penetrate another 10 cm in various directions. The bullet retains 80% weight and becomes a flat poiny cylinder which is very stable in tissue and leaves a relatively clean exit.


THis is fairly typical or the carcass damage.
As only the drive bands engage the grooves there is very little friction, the shaft of the bullet is subcalibre. Fouling is much less than a standard bullet and the barrel heats up less. Pressure is more even in the breach and groupings are less sensitive to powder variation. My 375 groups 16mm 4 shots from the published receipe so nop expensive load development required.

Mark
 
#4
Website

Been to the website Mark mentions above and have been trying to get through to a friend who works for NASA to try and understand what it all means!
 

MarkH

Well-Known Member
#7
Steve

As the only part of the bullet engaging the lands and grooved are the thin annual rings there is very little friction in the barrel.
Therefore breach pressure is 30% lower than a conventional bullet and more consistent. Graphs on request :D .
In my 7x64 I place 55gn RL15 and the conventional 139gn ballistic tip achieves 2900 fps. With the 120gn copper bullets the same load achieves 3300 fps.
Also so little copper is engaging the barrel cleaning it is very easy.

Mark
 

Dickie

Well-Known Member
#8
MarkH

I looked at the link and also got my head spinning but the big question is where can you get these bullets? and How much do they cost?

Dickie.
 

MarkH

Well-Known Member
#9
Delivery is about a week if you are looking at standard calibres. Cost is @ 120 euro/100 but email Lutz for specifics.
I use them for hunting only and do my practicing with homeload ballistic tips (non premium).
 

EMcC

Well-Known Member
#10
Hi Mark,
I contacted Lutz and he quoted me 140 euro per 100.
I asked for some .243 in 100 grn and .308 in 180 grn but due to their extraordinary performance he suggested 77 and 123 grns to produce the same performance.
I was not convinced so will carry on with my present bullets but can see the copper bullets becoming compulsary in the future, maybe not in my lifetime (aged 67) but the way the world is going I wouldn't be a bit surprised.
 

MarkH

Well-Known Member
#11
Hi EMcC

Because copper is lighter than lead a 180gn bullet with driving bands would be extremly long and all ballistic advantage would be lost.
The bullets work totally differently so I use 120gn in 7mm, 123 in 308, 155 in 375 H+H and 300gn in 458 Lott. Less recoil, flatter trajectory, more predictable penetration.
Some of the European hunting areas now ban lead bullets altogether.

Mark
 

alled12

Well-Known Member
#12
Last time I checked my chemistry book lead is heck of alot heavier than copper. Barnes also do full copper bullets their called x bullets I think. They are supposed to have excellent terminal ballistics and I considerably cheaper than those. I believe its sweden Norway and finland that are banning lead bullets from early next year.
 

EMcC

Well-Known Member
#13
Alled12,
It was an obvious mistake so I left it as it was.
If they were cheaper I'd give it a go but to pay that sort of money to play around is a bit expensive for me so until it becomes compulsory, I'll stick with my lead jobbies.
 

EMcC

Well-Known Member
#14
Oops, sorry. For the meticulous among you, I meant to say, "I'll stick with my Lead core, Copper coated jobbies". Must concentrate, as I used to be told in school fifty odd years ago!! lol
 

MarkH

Well-Known Member
#15
Apologies for the error with copper and lead but I think you know what I mean. :oops: :oops:
Sorry to disappoint but the Barnes are mass produced and I believe pressed whereas the KJG are turned individually on a CNC lathe making them more precise. Basically a better engineered bullet. As for the price KJG including postage are £ 94 for 100 and on Midway Barnes 150gn TSX are £72 + postage so lets say £80. Not a massive difference.
I personally found Barnes difficult to group and they foul the barrel more hence the change.
Another reason I changed is that the copper solids weight for weight penetrate better and travel straighter in the carcass . I use normal lead bullets for plinking at the range and KJG for hunting.
Also Barnes dont make these

or these


Mark
 

Thar

Well-Known Member
#16
Mark how much penetration do you need :oops: …………………………………………No No :D :D seeing a 243 with shoot straight though a red stag and a 270 will go straight though a Sika length wise (in between his front legs and out his A**e) with normal hunting bullets.

You are not a relative of Mr Bell are you brain shooting elephants. “Never a soft point bullet has fouled my barrel” :evil:

Thar
 

MarkH

Well-Known Member
#17
Hi Thar

I need lots and lots of penetration :evil: :evil: :evil:

the story begins on dark moonlight night in a German forest. I had been supplied with 175 gn RWS softpoint bullets for my 7x64. Out comes a large piggy who I shoot at @ 50m and he crashes to the ground. As I get out of the high seat he gets up and walks off into the wood never to be seen again despite 2 days of tracking. Minimal blood and no hair at the woundbed. Conclusion was the bullet deviated off the shoulder and hit the spine but RWS are very soft and possibly mushroomed too much to break the spine. In Africa I shot an impala at 30m with an S+B soft point in 30cal clean broadside and the bullet did not exit but deviated back into the liver, we tracked it 100 yds with no blood spoor. Only after the hunt do the specialist come out of the woodwork and say the RWS 175 TM is too thin jacketed and expands/disintigrated too fast :(
My point is I hate wounding or loosing animals. If you add the cost of a whole weeks hunt etc etc then bullet cost is not significant compared to the stress and cost of loosing an animal. I also dont like tracking unnecessarily.

I am not suggestin for a moment there is any problem with standard bullets or certain calibres. My point is that if we are in the game of improving stalking, shooting, rifle accuracy, internal, external and terminal ballistics then the KJG is the next generation in bullet design.

PS A lot of elephant culling was undertaked with 30 cal monolithic bullets shooting behind the ear from a helicopter Mr Bell replaced recoil and energy with accuracy and better penetration.

Happy shooting

Mark
 

Thar

Well-Known Member
#18
Hi Mark

I question the need for more penetration on UK deer species, even a core bonded bullet would be un-need in the UK unless you were using a big magnum and you were concerned about bullets braking up with close shots.

My point is that lack of penetration when shooting UK deer species is rarely an issue, in fact I would say that over penetration; failure of the bullet to expand fully would be more a concern on small deer.

I am not against the copper bullets per-say but would want it to expand at least as much as a “normal game bullet” not less.

As for your boar I know that they have a “shield” on there shoulder but it seems more of a case of poor shot placement (possibly you shot high and only clipped the spine) rather than too soft a bullet. I have hunted them with a 243 and my mate had a 223 don’t really recommend them calibres as a first choice but a 100gn 6mm bullet has no problem dropping a big boar if you hit him in the shoulder, so even your soft 175gn bullet would of dropped that pig if you had hit him right.

Remember:-

“The name of the man that never misses is………………………………. Billy Liar.”

Thar
 

alled12

Well-Known Member
#19
Emmc no problem just had the chemistry book out at the time :D. It is intersting that we are heading down the lead free route. I am not sure I want such a destructive bullet at least in Barnes case it holds together. As for boar, how about a brass solid no deformity smash striaght through bone with minmal deflection. Again it becomes about shot placement doesnt it. You have also got to start looking at sectional density and any number of things in terminal ballistics. Their are plenty of books on it if you dont mind looking at morgue photos. I suppose at the end of the day ammunition is personal choice. Just think I will hold off on these ones for a while and try barnes first and a few others. I believe one of the great elephant hunters used 6.5x55, I may be mistaken. A bullet with excellent sectional density. Now theirs another debate.
 

Thar

Well-Known Member
#20
alled12 said:
I believe one of the great elephant hunters used 6.5x55, I may be mistaken. A bullet with excellent sectional density. Now theirs another debate.
Errr Yes you are :D he used a 6.5X54 for a few, but he shot many more with a 7mm before switching to a .400. ;)

Thar
 

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