culling deer for 100K

Gaz

Well-Known Member
Just returned from a weeks hind stalking in the Highlands of Scotland. While out stalking with an old keeper friend one day, I was told an unbelievable tale of what was happening in his locallity.
Although it takes some believing, I can assure anyone reading this thread that the source is no liar. He has a local contract deer culler who was last year payed £92.00 a head to cull as many deer as possible. Shooting any breed of deer be it female, male, or calf twentyfour seven irrespective of season. This person amassed a cull figure which earned him in total nearly £100,000 pounds of tax payers money. As this is so obscene I just had to find time to post this thread for your reactions. Anymore words about this sad state of affairs fail me.
Here's hoping these mass culls will be STOPPED before its TOO late.
GAZ
 

tikka 3006

Well-Known Member
i know there is a recession on but that to me is nothing but greed in my opinion. on the other hand if fellas are short of money and get this kind of oppurtunity they would fiind it hard to pass up
 

1S1K

Well-Known Member
Thats just crazy many more of them sort of culls could see deer numbers dwindle to not a lot.
 

davidm

Well-Known Member
But who did your reliable source hear it from this could be a case of a brag in the pub a tale on a shoot to make some one look better than another. But could also be true. I personally wouldn't believe it. But like tikka 3006 says mibi a chance someone couldn't refuse.
 

weeman

Well-Known Member
That is hell of alot of deer if my calculations are right after a Sunday of real ale and red wine that is close to 1000 deer. He must be well known to ask to do such a job. What i cant understand is the people at the top say deer numbers are on the up and out of control, ok so why dont estates or stalkers reduce there fee's to allow people to come our more and to stalk and gain more experiance by offering more or better deals. I have known three chaps this year wear thay can only afford a single stalk and the stalkers have known full well that if stalkers have not gone out with them they have to continue the cull plan alone. But sure something is better than nothing and to build your revenue up by having more people out with yourself. I know that when people rent land people pay top end of the market so there hands are tided on the finance side of things. It's so ver exspensive setting up in this sport the stalking to is quite a burden more so in odays climate.
 

jamross65

Well-Known Member
Almost 3 deer per day, every day of the week....?

I would suggest impossible regardless of the number on the ground. Far too many variables against making that number. Think about the snow up there last year alone over Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb.
 

Crossfire

Active Member
jamross,
the snow last year brought the deer in, making big numbers easy to achieve, also if you are allowed to shoot either sex out of season then you just shoot what you see and if they are including calfs in their number (which is not usually the case) then I find it more than believable also the spotlight would have been used.
The guy is just doing what is asked off him and doing it well by all accounts.
someone mentioned taking guests out on such culls, well IMO perhaps experienced rifles might be able to help but to achieve such numbers novices would not be suitable. There was also a mention of making the sport cheaper, well id like a brand new Ferrari do you think they will make them more affordable ?
 

jcampbellsmith

Well-Known Member
I think there are one or two folk who break the 1000 number each year. They don't stalk like we stalk and when you talk to them, you find they are roaming over tens of thousands of acres. They will have a pal with them to help deal with the carcasses and they will try not to shoot anything more than 100yds from a road. For these folk time is money. Everything they do is slick time wise. They do exist and they are very good at what they do.

Regards JCS
 

timbrayford

Well-Known Member
Just returned from a weeks hind stalking in the Highlands of Scotland. While out stalking with an old keeper friend one day, I was told an unbelievable tale of what was happening in his locallity.
Although it takes some believing, I can assure anyone reading this thread that the source is no liar. He has a local contract deer culler who was last year payed £92.00 a head to cull as many deer as possible. Shooting any breed of deer be it female, male, or calf twentyfour seven irrespective of season. This person amassed a cull figure which earned him in total nearly £100,000 pounds of tax payers money. As this is so obscene I just had to find time to post this thread for your reactions. Anymore words about this sad state of affairs fail me.
Here's hoping these mass culls will be STOPPED before its TOO late.
GAZ
If their is substance behind this story I hope that this person was obliged to process these deer into the food chain and the proceeds returned to the taxpayer to offset the cost. I don't have a problem with the amount earned as I would expect that there was considerable effort involved, however I am not at all comfortable with the idea that sporting traditions of respect for the quarry and laws to protect them at night and during close seasons can be blatantly ignored in this manner. I agree that this practice should be stopped at once :evil:
 

WestCoastStalker

Well-Known Member
Just returned from a weeks hind stalking in the Highlands of Scotland. While out stalking with an old keeper friend one day, I was told an unbelievable tale of what was happening in his locallity.
Although it takes some believing, I can assure anyone reading this thread that the source is no liar. He has a local contract deer culler who was last year payed £92.00 a head to cull as many deer as possible. Shooting any breed of deer be it female, male, or calf twentyfour seven irrespective of season. This person amassed a cull figure which earned him in total nearly £100,000 pounds of tax payers money. As this is so obscene I just had to find time to post this thread for your reactions. Anymore words about this sad state of affairs fail me.
Here's hoping these mass culls will be STOPPED before its TOO late.
GAZ
I can confirm what you've heard is correct although the correct figure was closer to 1200. A lot of which is being done out of season and with a spotlight. Certain deer forests are being shot to the point that there's hardly a deer left. This isn't only wiping out numbers in these forests but is also having a knock on effect in the surrounding areas.

Its time that SNH and FC Scotland were investigated over this on a number of issues.

Why is a night shooting licence being issued for all FC ground and not just vulnerable areas as stated in best practice?
Why are FC being allowed to shoot out of season across all their land?
Why are deer management plans being so blatantly ignored?
During times of economic hardship, why is this money being spent when it is unnecessary?
Why are contracts being issued on a 5 year basis? Due to increase in culls, hard winters how can you determine a cull figure 5 years in advance? I know these contracts can be reviewed annually but as far as I'm aware they never have been.

FC Scotland seem to be able to ignore any rules and guidance they want without fear of any repercussions. Why is this being allowed to continue? Are SNH and FC Scotland to closely linked?

In my opinion deer management in Scotland needs to be independently investigated and reviewed because some of the practices that are being allowed at the moment can't continue. I'm not saying there isn't a place for nightshooting and contract stalkers because there most definitely is, but it should be done only where it is absolutely necessary. The rules need to be more stringent on its use and somebody needs to be there to ensure that these rules are not being abused. Trees are vulnerable in their first few years and nightshooting on restocks can be the only effective method of protection but should this allow a spotlight to be used in that same forest several miles away from that particular restock? Nightshooting needs to be issued on a block by block basis.

Below is a link to the MP and MSP lists and I would urge anyone to contact their local representative to ask these questions. If its easier everyone could copy and paste from this thread and e-mail them. We could even get a definitive list of questions that need answered and draft a letter or e-mail that each individual can use if its something they feel strong enough about.

MP List
http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/

MSP List
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msps/177.aspx

Best practice guidance
http://www.bestpracticeguides.org.uk/reference/dcs_night.aspx
 

jimbo123p

Well-Known Member
100k for culling 1100 deer, Not a bad earner, Now he has no carcase money cos that goes to the larder, Now 10k probably nearer 15k is purely vehicle expense, Now there will be a quad involved 3k a year 18k. There will be commercial insurance with PL and EL. 3k 21k. Team members prob £25 per carcase or there abouts unless it is a wage system 30K 51K Equipment and protective clothes 3K 54k Tax man, vat man, comes along and takes a big bite out of the 46k left. Then there is down time for weather so you are working day and night on every available occassion with no pension plan, no holiday pay and the next phonecall says cull finished land now leased, no job. The deer are being ciulled for a reason. May be justified, may be pie in the sky but it is not stalking, it is pure insensative culling. The culler cannot allow the sensitivities to prevent the trigger pull. As John says, it can be and is done. It is not as richly rewarding as it appears. Any busines incuding culling makes money while the work is there, Rule of thumb is in self employment you have to earn double rate to survive, why? Billing hours is the easiest way to explain. I employ a mechanic 10 per hour for a 40 hour week, holidays 10% of the year now 11 per hour needed NI will add another 2 so it is 13. EL insurance, training, safety equipment etc will add more so the basic expence of that mechanic now costs me 16 per hour of £640 per week. however, time between jobs etc I can only bill the customers for 30 hours of his labour per week so he is actually costing the business 21.30 per hour double the initial 10. The self employed like the employer must factor in these costs so the 46 has suddenly become a wage of £23,000. Not a great deal of money in this day and age for the unsocial and long hours. Jim
 

jimbo123p

Well-Known Member
Westcoast Stalker, I aske that same question at the Lowland deer conference. I was told in no uncertain terms that every deer night licence is vigourously checked. The chairman of the FCE shut down the topic immediately. It hit a raw nerve. There are ways round the system that allows estates to get night licenses and use them in unauthorised areas by a back door system. Jim
 

rudy65

Well-Known Member
It is true and if you want to here a really hard amount of money in hard times. It cost us the Tax payer Over £6,000,000 to cull deer this is just for pulling the trigger nothing else. More than 80% was out of season or Lamp. This is not having a go at the chaps that do it, For them its a job of work and beats sitting on the dole. This is something that needs looked at in detail at a higher level.
 

Si

Well-Known Member
This caused a stink a few years ago.....
[video=youtube;mT4EM56r5sg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT4EM56r5sg[/video]

I wonder how much these guys got paid?
 
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WestCoastStalker

Well-Known Member
Westcoast Stalker, I aske that same question at the Lowland deer conference. I was told in no uncertain terms that every deer night licence is vigourously checked. The chairman of the FCE shut down the topic immediately. It hit a raw nerve. There are ways round the system that allows estates to get night licenses and use them in unauthorised areas by a back door system. Jim
It seems that certain people within Government funded bodies think that their actions are beyond being questioned by anyone and its a topic they always avoid giving answers on. This is why I'm urging anyone with an interest in the welfare of Scotlands deer population to contact their local representative because I feel the only way these questions are going to be answered is if there is a thorough independent investigation.

With regards to your previous post, you're absolutely spot on. £90 a deer for 1200 deer seems like a hell of a lot of money but its not as rosy as it sounds, although 2 guys left full time FC jobs and were shooting the same area with a contract the next day so they must think its worthwhile. I also think that FC must be very close to breaking tax laws by using self employed guys to work effectively full time for them. If a certain percentage of your work is for one company then you should be employed by that company and therefore be afforded holiday pay, sick pay etc. Anyway that's a different topic..........
 

Gazza

Well-Known Member
Recently persons were invited to tender for a contract in Central Scotland. The areas under offer were in the main small blocks and most fell within the constituted boundaries of DMGs registered with the ADMG. Value of the contract - £38000.
The Government have spent thousands of pounds on Best Practice Days etc to build on the voluntary sector, many vocational stalkers have spent money on training and obtaining the recognised qualifications, the SNH have spent Government money to encourage the development of DMGs yet in correspondence with the FCS they state that their options in addressing deer management are FC Rangers, Contractors and Leases. No reference to the use of local DMGs or anybody from the voluntary sector. Why?
 

firsttimer

Well-Known Member
Recently persons were invited to tender for a contract in Central Scotland. The areas under offer were in the main small blocks and most fell within the constituted boundaries of DMGs registered with the ADMG. Value of the contract - £38000.
The Government have spent thousands of pounds on Best Practice Days etc to build on the voluntary sector, many vocational stalkers have spent money on training and obtaining the recognised qualifications, the SNH have spent Government money to encourage the development of DMGs yet in correspondence with the FCS they state that their options in addressing deer management are FC Rangers, Contractors and Leases. No reference to the use of local DMGs or anybody from the voluntary sector. Why?
Probably because they need a job done within a specific period before, during or after re-stocking! Volunteers, DMGs or recreational stalkers will not have the time to put in to get the cull done in the same fashion having day time job, other ground to cover or once out a couple of times the novelty wearing off and the FC then are faced with putting their own Rangers in or having to pay a premium for a Contractor to deal.

There will be the committed stalker out there that could do a job for them but the FC will be taking a 'risk' with unknowns.

Heard of numerous older leases being taken off holders or alternative measures being adopted where Permit Holders are not achieving culls due to lack of attendance on the ground or the trophy hunters not dealing with the girlies as well.
 

rudy65

Well-Known Member
FT I think you might be correct in some of the cases but the one Gazza is referring to was a perfect chance for the public and private sector to work together for a common goal.
At this moment the FC and SNH are trying to get the voluntary stalker involved to cut costs. But no one will stick there neck out just in case it gets chopped off. But what alot forget is the FC as a company are bankrupt that SNH are cutting costs. The Government are now looking at the waisted resources and i am sure there eyes will be on the deer sector. The money making LDN that just passed i am told has failed to reach what was expected and will be put on hold unless the government bail it out. So keep your pennies in your pockets. We are in for a rough ride ahead but not as rough as the public sector workers.


ALLAN
 

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