deer initiative.

mole trapper

Well-Known Member
#1
Could someone please explain what these people are about and what is their agenda, i have read their blurb but that does not tell you what THEIR REAL aims are.
Two of the farmers i control deer for said they have been sniffing around saying they want to put high seats on their land and will control the deer for them. Luckily these guys know that i can be trusted and would not entertain DI,s unwanted advances.
They have apparently been organising meetings in village halls in and around my areas offering their GENEROSITY to land owners.

Regards MT.
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
#2
Sounds like another one of these deer groups/syndicate set ups :rolleyes:

They seem to have suddenly sprung up over the last few years. We had one down this way, shot the hell out of everywhere they went, cherry picked the big heads and then moved on after they were thrown off. Also had another group in Scotland that I knew of, they lasted one season, that was about 7 years back.

These groups/people are a bit like mushrooms, they appear overnight :lol: :lol: and no one knows much about them, but they never really seem to last long. I wonder why :???:
 

The Mole

Well-Known Member
#3
Hi mole trapper

The DI have been around for a few years now, but have always said that they are there to coordinate rather than do the actual culling. Sounds like somebody might be using their name to do a bit of freelancing. What part of the country are you in? I know that the DI has been especially active in the east of England although they cover all regions.

At the moment the DI are 'independent', but I suspect that they want to become more of an official body, a bit like the Deer Commission for Scotland. If so, it's worrying.
 

Bandit Country

Well-Known Member
#4
As always a good place to start is the web:

http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/index.htm

It all looks fine and dandy - "registered charity", "partnership", "sustainable" - it has all the right terminology. (For those of you that think the DSC - and all associated with it - are spawn of the devil you may wish to check out the connection between DI and DMQ! :lol:)

However, it appears that some folk in 'deer management groups' that the DI 'co-ordinate' sometimes put a bit of a spin on their spiel to farmers/landowners. "Deer Initiative" (official charitable body etc etc)seems to get more of a mention than "XXX management group" (vension wholesalers, stalking to let, sporting agents etc etc).

It tends to be the same old pitch, "We will manage your deer 'problem' at no cost to you, blah, blah, blah" and then as Sikamalc says the local
herd(s) get shot to bits, the good heads taken (by whom and at what fee?) and off they jolly well go. I have even heard of landowners being charged for the 'deer management service'!

As in all things I guess there will be good and bad management groups - I just wish they all would represent themselves honestly.
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
#5
Its a bit of a concern if they are a registered charity. Charitable Law is a bit of a mine field, I fail to see how they can call it a charity, in fact it seems totally wrong to me as I have worked for one for 34 years.

Time will tell I guess.
 

Pete E

Well-Known Member
#6
sikamalc said:
Its a bit of a concern if they are a registered charity. Charitable Law is a bit of a mine field, I fail to see how they can call it a charity, in fact it seems totally wrong to me as I have worked for one for 34 years.

Time will tell I guess.
What are they doing thats incompatible with their charitable status? My gut feeling is that they are doing just that, but I don't know enough about Charity Law to say 100%...

My understanding of the situation is the same as Bandit Country...I would add that the main funding behind the DI is the Forestry Commission at present..

The DI's official stance is that the promote or help set up independent Deer Management Groups to manage or control deer more effectively over larger areas.

From talking to various people in areas where the DI are active, it would seem that these Deer Management Groups often try to take over as much land as possible in the area and use the DI's name to do it often at the expense of the resident stalker..

I've actually heard that certain officials within the DI are just as bad in this respect...

Proving what amounts to an abuse of position is a different matter and its proof the Charities Commission would need to take any action..
 

1shot1kill

Well-Known Member
#7
we knowone else said it clearly so i will, they go round getting FREE STALKING pretending to be of help to the landowners and they will get it aswell.
The price for some stalking is getting silly nowadays anyway, city types heading north in there new 4x4s,
Wellys with zips
Fancy German Rifles
l tell you!!! lol :D
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
#8
To attain Charitable Status you must be a non profit making buisness that does not benefit you financially, nor must you be affilliated to a profit making business or have any trustees that have a foot in two camps, this is taken as a conflict of interest, and could be against charitable law.

I fail to see how a business is trying to gain free stalking and managing deer can be Charitable can you!!!

The BDS is a Charitable status because it does not stalk deer it is there for the welfare and benefit of deer.

I am suspicious of these types of Deer control units/organisations that claim to be under Charitable Law :rolleyes:
 

Pete E

Well-Known Member
#9
Malc,

It seems very easy for these Charities to side step those requirements..I believe the BDS for instance has a trading company associated with it so they can sell training and goods ect...

Getting back o the DI, I don't think it has any stalking in its name, but rather sets up the independent DMG's plus some of its employees just happen to get stalking which is then in their names not the DI's...

The whole thing stinks and is just an abuse of power...However unless the DI can show some tangible benefits to the FC, there is a good chance they will have their funding cut...I know the FC have already scaled back their contributions a year ortwo ago and it resulted in some belt tightening in the DI..I suspect that if it were to happen again, they would go under...

Regards,

Pete
 

mole trapper

Well-Known Member
#10
Thanks for confirming my concerns, been up there this afternoon chatting to two of the farmers, they both agreed they did not want a bunch of blokes with guns that they dont know from adam wandering about the place. Funny thing was while we were all stood there putting the world to rights a couple of ladies came along on their horses, turns out they were neighbours from further up the valley, next thing i was asked if i could do something about both of their deer aswell as it was common place to see 30-40 in their fields at any given time. Grudgingly i said if i must, :D .
Just as a finale, i had taken a good friend of mine with me as i owed him a favour, on the first bit of the new ground he took a lovely conditioned fallow pricket at a 140 yds, we both came away delighted with the way this afternoon went.
Regards MT.
 

Bandit Country

Well-Known Member
#11
[quote="Pete E I've actually heard that certain officials within the DI are just as bad in this respect...[/quote]

Well that makes two of us then Pete! :)

While I think the concept of the Deer Intiative is good - effectively a national co-ordinating body for deer management - it is the implementation where it falls over. Basically folk exploiting the DI name for their own ends.

Interesting to think about the actuality of the DI and the thread about a new organisation to represent stalkers and stalking interests! :lol:
 

deer-fox

Well-Known Member
#12
DI

Within the DI group there are Deer stalkers, and their plan is to get as much stalking as they can and keep it for themselves , they tell the farmers that they are there to control the deer and by using the name DI helps to put weight behind them, Most, Not all, are out to fill their boots,
 

zaitsev

Well-Known Member
#13
OK guys, I'll give you my perspective. I have assisted the deer initiative on a number of occasions during census work and on collaborative culls. Obviously I can only speak from my experience which was positive and professional. The census work resulted in the local stalkers actually communicating and concentrating their efforts in the vicinity of a local SSSI which was being damaged by fallow deer. Overall numbers were reduced but the DI did not get involved directly with the cull. The census work is ongoing and is carried out with thermal imaging equipment that none of the estates or local stalkers would have access to. Eventually the dataset produced will be of assistance to the local deer managers in predicting trends and seasonal movements as the areas surveyed are very wide.

The collaborative culling work was carried out in a high conservation value woodland (butterflies and other invertebrate habitat) SSSI, SAC, SBI etc etc. The habitat was being eaten to oblivion by a high population of muntjac and roe. Coppice stools could not regenerate and the groups involved were very reticent in admitting that culling was neccessary. After much effort on the DIs part a cull was organised over the doe season and the numbers reduced. The whole team worked extremely hard in order to reduce the numbers and to prove to the owners that stalking was neccesary for the wellbeing of the woodland habitat. The owners refused to believe that there were more than 1 or 2 deer within the wood which was quickly realised to be wrong when the cull commenced. The Stalking will now be let out so rather than taking away an opportunity for local stalkers, one has been created.

There are many, many areas that are holding far too many deer because landowners will not allow culling or they have stalkers who for whatever reason are innefectual. This is where the DI comes in to liase with landowners, work with stalkers and to assist effective deer management.

I can sympathise with those who have had negative experiences and decry those who would work to suit their own ends. In the end it helps no one and certainly not the DI whose reputation has seemingly been tarnished. That said it may actually be best to speak to the Deer Liason Officers on the ground before passing judgement. Their contact numbers are on the DI website so if you have any problems or queries then go straight to them and get their side of the story.

Cheers

Z
 

lwcdart

Well-Known Member
#14
The D I

Guys I am in no way putting myself up for slaughter or crusifiction here but I am in fact a member of the Eastern Wilts D I Group that covers the Northern edge of the New Forest & Wiltshire.

This group has no hidden agenda of any fashion it is just those responceable for the Deer Managment for Private Estates, the Forestry Commission & English Nature meeting twice a year to collate a cull plan for what equates to about half a county of ground & those that are members are to be honest too busy in the day to day running of their own ground/estates or deer managment to persue their own ajends for self gain.

However two of my buddies whom are stalkers on the syndacate I run have advised me of very strange events in other areas of the UK involving the D I. & do consider them the "Bill Gates of Stalking"

All I can tell you is what I know & I can honestly say that here in Hants/Wilts its just what I have said-a meeting to discuss & compare cull figures & arrange a deer observation cencus during the larger species close season-stuff like that.

I cannot comment on what is happening else where in the UK, but as others have said I guess there is good & bad in most bodies & that some D I managment groups could use the name to try to put weight behind their pitch when going after new ground so to speak if they wanted to.

Regs Lee
 

deer-fox

Well-Known Member
#15
I was not intent on painting everyone with the same brush, As with the 2 previous listings there is always some people that operate in a professional way, but my findings are, that not all DI members are professionals and they are out for their OWN befits only
 

lwcdart

Well-Known Member
#16
The D I

There will always be seperate people that wiil do this irrespective of wether they are a Memebr of a DI Group, BASC or BDS as these body names-will help throw more weight behind any pitch for ground with a land owner, but I have no experiance of a kind of planned assult on ground by The DI or its Group members in the Hants/Wilts area to enlarge their interests, thats not to say that its not going on in other areas though with seperate managment groups which is what the the previous posts seem to have experianced.

Lee
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
#17
PeteE in respect to your last post. A charity is perfectly able to set up a subsidary money making company as a totally seperate entity, providing there are no conflicts of interest whatsoever, this includes payed Directors etc.

The company may then gift aid across money to the charity and get tax relief on it.

So BDS are not breaking the law. Our Museum has a seperate catering company that is operated independantly finacially from the Museum, although they share the office space they pay for the rent and services supplied by the charity, and financially everything is kept seperate.

Bit of a book keeping nightmare, but that is basically how it works.
 

mole trapper

Well-Known Member
#18
So who invited them to set up camp in one of my areas and start handing out invites to all the local landowners asking them to attend their meeting in the village hall, bloody nerve beggars belief. This specific area has seen a lot of under handed scullduggery in the last few years, especially by a certain DMG supposedly all members being friends, a good friend of mine was the chairman, he had a very prestigeous and prolific bit of ground, his own group went behind his back and paid a small fortune for it, needless to say he is very jaded by getting such a good shafting by his own friends. Personally i think it is just another bunch of chancers out to line their pockets at everyone elses expense.
Thankfully the locals are a canny lot not easily ripped off by a bunch of shite hawks.
Kind regards to all genuine stalkers, MT.
 

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
#19
Mole Trapper, its just like all the other unwelcome visitors one can get knocking on your door from time to time, why should you be any different :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry mate, I completely sympathise with you, and your friend who was shafted. It aint the first time and it aint gonna be the last. If they were sniffing around any of my ground they would get short thrift from me as well.

I think that would apply to many on here, but thats my personal opinion.
 

Pete E

Well-Known Member
#20
sikamalc said:
PeteE in respect to your last post. A charity is perfectly able to set up a subsidary money making company as a totally seperate entity, providing there are no conflicts of interest whatsoever, this includes payed Directors etc.

The company may then gift aid across money to the charity and get tax relief on it.

So BDS are not breaking the law. Our Museum has a seperate catering company that is operated independantly finacially from the Museum, although they share the office space they pay for the rent and services supplied by the charity, and financially everything is kept seperate.

Bit of a book keeping nightmare, but that is basically how it works.
Malc,

I'm not suggesting the BDS is in anyway breaking the law, just that the law allows this kind of set up which in the end the Charity benefits from..

Although I've heard plenty of accounts of underhandedness on the back of the DI, I bet the core operation is squeaky clean...Its certain DI initiated DMG's, and their members, along with individuals with in the DI who have very questionable ethics in these matters..

Regards,

Peter
 

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